Live Transcript

courtesy Speche Communications

Deaf Community & Gallaudet University

What does it mean to be deaf in the twenty-first century? The incoming and outgoing presidents of Gallaudet University join Kojo to discuss the recent controversy at the school and the meaning of "deaf culture" in an era of medical and technological change.

The live broadcast has concluded. Following is the caption text from the broadcast courtesy of Speche Communications.

From WAMU at American university in Washington welcome to the Kojo Nnamdi Show. Imagine if you will a world in which no one is deaf, a world in which everyone knows the sound of laughter or the sound of a baby's cry or the sound of the opening theme of a radio program like this one. Some people might hail this end of deafness as a medical miracle. And it's not much of a stretch to imagine such a medical breakthrough in the coming years. But would the end of deafness really be a good thing? Many people in the deaf community would say no. They say being deaf and using sign language means belonging to a unique culture, a different but not inferior way of living. So, how does that culture evolve as new technologies allow deaf people to move more easily into the hearing world? How much should deaf people fight to protect their unique identity? These were some of the questions that emerged earlier this spring at Gallaudet University when students took to the streets to protest the selection of the university's provost Jane Fernandes as the new leader for the school. At the time, Dr. Fernandes said some people thought she was not deaf enough, in part because she didn't learn to use sign language until she was in her 20s. Joining us now to explore the issues of deaf culture and the future of Gallaudet University is Dr. Jane Fernandes, president designate of the Gallaudet University. She has served as provost of the university since 2000. Welcome, thank you for joining us.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Thank you, Kojo, thank you for inviting me here.

Kojo Nnamdi: Also with us is Dr. I. King Jordan. Dr. Jordan is the current or you might say the outgoing president of Gallaudet University. Dr. Jordan, good to see you again.

Dr. I. King Jordan: Nice to see you. I'm delighted to be here.

Kojo Nnamdi: Allow me to start with Dr. Fernandes. It was a difficult spring at Gallaudet with the student protests over your selection.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: It certainly was.

Kojo Nnamdi: What have you learned from that experience?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I learned how many people really do care very deeply for Gallaudet University and how important Gallaudet University is to the deaf community. We saw that very clearly last spring.

Kojo Nnamdi: You know that of course Dr. Fernandes is speaking through an interpreter and we're providing real time captioning at our Web site at WAMU.org so you can check out the live scrolling transcript as we continue our conversation. I guess this is both for Dr. Jordan and Dr. Fernandes. Do you anticipate any turmoil as students return to campus during the course of the next few weeks? And of course Dr. Fernandes is speaking through an interpreter.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Yes. Well, I hope not. I hope that we will be focusing on providing excellent education to our deaf and hard of hearing and deaf/blind students that we do so well. Really, we can't predict what will happen. But I just hope not.

Kojo Nnamdi: Your expectation, Dr. Jordan.

Dr. I. King Jordan: Our message to the community is that we want to strengthen the community. All of us need to work together. The passion, the love, the support for the university that was evident in the spring, that's still there. And there are some dissenters but it's time for the dissenters to come to grips with the decision and move forward to help educate our students.

Kojo Nnamdi: Dr. Jordan you were selected as president following another period of protest back in 1988. Those protests are now seen as a watershed moment for the deaf community. What do you think those protests accomplished?

Dr. I. King Jordan: I believe that what happened in 1988 was really a milestone and not only the deaf community but in the disability community. It was a revolution. It was a message that people who are disabled or differently-abled, people who are deaf have all the rights and abilities of people who are not deaf. So that 1988 event really, while it began as a protest, really became a social revolution.

Kojo Nnamdi: We're inviting your phone calls at 800-433-8850. We continue our conversation with I. King Jordan, president of Gallaudet University and Jane Fernandes, president designate of Gallaudet University. She's served as provost of the university since the year 2000. You can call us at 800-433-8850 or send e-mail at KOJO WAMU.org. What has changed since the '80s in terms of how deaf and hearing people interact. Are there still stereotypes people have about living with a hearing impairment that you think needs to be corrected?

Dr. I. King Jordan: The stereotypes are being corrected every day. The stereotype that hurts the worst is people who aren't deaf and don't understand deafness pay attention to what deaf people can't do. People who are hearing and might think that later they will become deaf, they start to list all the things they won't be able to do. Those of us in the deaf community, we focus on what we can do. We pay to the attention of the abilities, not the one single disability.

Kojo Nnamdi: Those in the hearing community can do a lot of things but one thing most of us cannot do is run ultra marathons. Are you still doing that?

Dr. I. King Jordan: I still do that, yes, I do.

Kojo Nnamdi: I envy you. You are my hero for doing that. Dr. Fernandes you grew up speaking. You learned sign language when you were in your 20s. Can you share a bit more of your experience of being deaf and how your methods of communication have changed over the years?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Sure. I did grow up speaking. My family is deaf and hearing. I have a deaf mother, a deaf brother. Hearing father. And in my family we use primarily English, spoken English. And when I was in graduate school at the university of Iowa, I met the first deaf people that I had ever known who signed. And it was a very life-changing experience for me. Learning sign language certainly improved my life so much. I can't even imagine living without sign language right now. So I'm very fortunate to have been able to learn sign language in Iowa.

Kojo Nnamdi: Before you learned sign language, did you feel a sense of alienation from the deaf community?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I really had no relationship with the deaf community prior to my learning of sign language. I only knew the deaf people that were in my family. And I also felt a deep level of alienation from hearing people at that time. In my schooling, it wasn't bad, but just I never felt like I was fully there. It was almost like my glass was half full. I mean things were okay, but just something was missing. When I once learned sign language, then I felt like my glass was full, and I was a more whole person at that time.

Kojo Nnamdi: Even though you have become fluent, some question your commitment to sign language as the dominant form of communication within the deaf community. What is your thinking about that?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I'm not -- I'm not a native signer. I wish that I had learned sign language as a young child. I love the beauty of the language. People who are born and use sign language from birth is beautiful. And I'm a fluent signer, and I am committed to American sign language or ASL as we call it as the dominant form of instruction at Gallaudet University. And I'm 100 percent committed to that.

Kojo Nnamdi: Dr. Jordan you became deaf as a result of an automobile accident. I read where you had never even met a deaf person before that. What was your experience like learning to navigate the world as a deaf person for the first time in your early 20s?

Dr. I. King Jordan: It's very interesting to talk about that, because Dr. Fernandes and I are really different. It's just an indication that there are many different ways to be deaf in the world. I grew up hearing when I became deaf I thought it was a temporary thing. And I focused, as I said earlier, I focused on what I couldn't do. I couldn't hear music. I couldn't use the telephone. I couldn't do this, I couldn't do that. Gallaudet changed my life. Just as the university of Iowa changed Dr. Fernandes's life. I arrived at Gallaudet to get a college education. But instead, when I got there, I learned how to become a deaf person. So it was really an interesting course to navigate.

Kojo Nnamdi: This question is for both of you. If we look at both of your stories, how do you, how and where do you see yourself fitting into deaf culture, and I guess more importantly, how would you define deaf culture?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I would explain deaf culture as a group of people who use American Sign Language and live according to deaf norms, deaf values and behaviors. When I grew up, I was deaf audiologically, but I did not grow up within the deaf culture. I joined the deaf culture when I learned American Sign Language.

Dr. I. King Jordan: I'm very comfortable with American Sign Language but I'm much less fluent than Dr. Fernandes even. I sign like a hearing person. People who watch me sign know that I didn't grow up signing, know that my sign language is very hearing. So I also, though, completely support American Sign Language and I can't imagine life without sign language interpreters, and without interacting with deaf people who sign.

Nnamdi: We're providing real time captioning in partnership with Speche.com at our Web site at WAMU.org. If you're having problems seeing it click the "view transcript" button. Also call us to join this conversation at 800-433-8850 or you can send e-mail to Kojo at WAMU.org. Before I go to the telephones, is there a significant amount of tension between people who have been deaf since birth versus those who became deaf later, as well as among those who speak versus those who use sign language exclusively. Is there some tensions there, some tension there that has to be overcome?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, there is some tension between different types of deaf people. That is true. But I think the underlying nature of people that are deaf is that they have a common experience. And the university, Gallaudet, will be able to unite all different types of deaf people. Gallaudet University has shown the world that all deaf people are welcome to learn there. It's a place that integrates different types of deaf people with American Sign Language that is really the fabric that unites a diverse deaf community.

Dr. I. King Jordan: We have all those kinds of deaf people at Gallaudet University. People come to Gallaudet who grow up in the mainstream and never sign. So they got together, people are at Gallaudet who became deaf in their 20s, people at Gallaudet who are third, fourth, fifth generation deaf. All of them get along wonderfully. When they come to Gallaudet, they all become part of a very vibrant community, where ASL is at the foundation of that community.

Kojo Nnamdi: Allow me to now go to the telephones, starting with Paul who is in Washington D.C. Paul, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

Paul: Hi, yes. Actually have a comment and a question for Dr. Fernandes. I'm a member of the campus community here at Gallaudet. And I haven't had the opportunity to talk to you since you've been selected president-elect. But I applaud you. And look forward to working with you. I'm very aware of your extensive efforts since you've been provost to follow up on the campus climate study findings that we have, that we had a few years ago. And I credit you with keeping it alive on campus, specifically your diversity initiatives: racism and audism. And I don't think that probably many people are aware of the commitment and work behind the scenes as well as publicly that you've been involved in regarding diversity. So would you describe a few of those efforts that you've done, you've made over the past few years, and also restate the placement of diversity in terms of your vision plan for the university.

Kojo Nnamdi: Thank you, Paul.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Yes, Gallaudet University is just so diverse as it stands. It's been diverse. It will continue to be diverse, both diversity within the deaf community as to how people are deaf, as well as diversity in terms of race, gender, age, disability, sexual orientation. It's quite a diverse community. And I'm very committed to making sure that Gallaudet University is an inclusive deaf university. And that it is a welcoming place for everyone. And I'm working hard to make sure that we model what it means to include everyone.

Kojo Nnamdi: And the caller used the word "audism" which many people are not familiar with. Dr. Jordan, what exactly is audism.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: I would like to answer that. Audism is a term that was actually invented and made by Tom Humphreys, and it means discrimination based on hearing status. For example, racism is discrimination based on skin color, and audism is discrimination based on ability to hear.

Kojo Nnamdi: Paul, thank you very much for your call.

Paul: Thank you very much.

Kojo Nnamdi: We're going to take a short break. When we come back we'll return to this conversation with Dr. King Jordan and Dr. Jane Fernandes, the outgoing and incoming presidents of Gallaudet University about deaf culture and the future of Gallaudet. You can still call us 800-433-8850 or send your e-mail at KOJO.WAMU.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi..

Kojo Nnamdi: Welcome back we're talking about deaf culture and Gallaudet University with I. King Jordan, the president of Gallaudet University and Jane Fernandes, who is the president designate of the university and has served as provost since the year 2000, and reminding you that we are providing live scrolling. We welcome members of the deaf community who are joining us today via the real time captioning available at our Web site at WAMU.org. If you're having any problems seeing it, click the "view transcript" button and remember you can communicate with us by e-mail at email@kojo.wamu.orgg or call us at 800-433-8850. We got an e-mail from Joaquin from Chicago who is visiting in Maryland for Dr. Fernandes. I'm curious about the book you're writing about deaf public speakers. I'd like to know more about it and imagine that hearing people may be intrigued by the idea of deaf people as public speakers.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, yes, I am writing a book with my husband, Jim Fernandes, about deaf people, historically, who have made famous speeches that have an impact and made a change in society in some way. For example, there is one speaker that was the former president of the NAD, the National Association for the Deaf. And in World War II he actually was on radio just like we are right now, and he spoke too, he was a deaf man. He could speak. But he wanted to make a presentation so that hearing people who wouldn't, if they knew any deaf people who lived in their neighborhoods, to tell them to go to any of the local factories and this happened in Akron, Ohio, as a matter of fact, so the deaf people would go to these factories to participate and work there, because of the hearing men all going off to war. So that's one thing we're going to be putting in the book.

Kojo Nnamdi: It's my understanding the aforementioned husband Jim Fernandes has at least one really outstanding quality. That is he's a regular listener of this show.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: That's correct. He loves this show. He certainly does.

Kojo Nnamdi: Let's go to Kathy in Beltsville, Maryland. You're on the air. Please go ahead.

Kathy: I'd like to know what's the support from deaf people outside of the university? Are they looking forward to Dr. Fernandes being the next president?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, my belief is that the vast majority of deaf people are looking forward to my presidency. I was attending the National Association for the Deaf conference this summer, and I just had a lot of warm feelings expressed to me by many deaf people there.

Kojo Nnamdi: Thank you for your call. Dr. Jordan I may have interrupted you. You may have had a comment.

Dr. I. King Jordan: I was going to request equal time because I know my wife is listening to this radio show right now. And our car is set to 88.5. She listens to NPR all the time.

Kojo Nnamdi: Two spouses with outstanding qualities, clearly. What about the relationship between deaf and hearing people? How do you balance, if you will, the desire to protect your cultural identity, while also adapting to a world in which most people can hear? Dr. Fernandes.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, deaf people always have lived in a hearing world. They have always had to adapt. And that will not change. But we're faced with many technological advances now that had never been, had never been in existence before. So that has actually made great strides for us in terms of our accessibility, the use of the Internet. Cochlear implants. So it's leveled the playing field for deaf people, and I believe that the technological advances, particularly pagers and things like that, are something that we can use to improve our lives. And however that will never overtake our culture, because we just take advantage of those technological advances to make the world more accessible to us.

Dr. I. King Jordan: It's really an issue of communication. The people are most comfortable with people with whom they communicate comfortably and easily. When I'm with people who can hear, I have to work to communicate. I have to really pay attention. I get tired. I love people who can hear. I have family. I have friends who can hear. Many of whom don't sign. And to communicate with them I have to work hard. When I'm with deaf people, when I'm in my community, it's so easy and comfortable, that you don't think. You just communicate. And that's really the difference, I think.

Kojo Nnamdi: How have these new technologies like e-mail and web cameras changed your own professional lives? Do you interact more with people in the hearing community because of these new technologies?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I believe that all of us interact more with hearing people and actually with deaf people as when he, using our pagers, using e-mail between one another. Instant messaging. So yes, I would say that it's been a huge influence on us.

Dr. I. King Jordan: A lot has changed so much and so fast. That, for example, the notion of captioned radio, that was really something, who would have ever thought that you can read what's going on on the radio. It's just a wonderful thing.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: It is.

Dr. I. King Jordan: There are deaf people all over who are sitting reading the transcript or, you know, real time, of what we're saying. It's just an amazing thing.

Kojo Nnamdi: Indeed.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: It certainly is. And I really applaud the effort that's being made here to do that.

Kojo Nnamdi: We are providing real time captioning in partnership with Speche.com at our Web site WAMU.org. If you're having any trouble seeing it, click the "view transcript" button and you can communicate with us by calling either 800-433-8850 or by sending e-mail to email@kojo.wamu.orgg. Let's talk with Clarence in Columbia, Maryland. Clarence, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

Clarence: I'd like to ask Dr. Fernandes, having been present and a part of all of the events that preceded this year, and now being the responsible party for the future there, what is your vision for the future there at Gallaudet?

Kojo Nnamdi: Well, you should know we only have about half an hour left in this program, and visions are usually pretty long statements. So we're going to have to ask her to give a brief version of her vision.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Certainly. Certainly. I envision Gallaudet University continuing to lead the world, providing excellence in education and top quality education for deaf, hard of hearing and deaf/blind students. We are becoming an inclusive deaf university, where everyone is included, valued and respected. We're working to create a strong community and strengthen our existing community. The fundamental, basic existence of Gallaudet University is and always will be the use of American Sign Language, both within and without the classroom. So American Sign Language is a vital, central part of deaf culture, as well as Gallaudet.

Kojo Nnamdi: Thank you very much for your call, Clarence. Does that satisfy you?

Clarence: Yes, it does.

Kojo Nnamdi: Okay. Let me see if Dr. Jordan would like to add anything to that. Dr. Jordan.

Dr. I. King Jordan: No, I think she said it very well. It's certainly her vision for the future. And it's a vision that we should all share. The notion of American Sign Language is fundamental to the purpose and mission of the university, is key. But certainly an excellent education is exactly what we're all about.

Kojo Nnamdi: Clarence, thank you very much for your call, because I was wondering about the balance between the vision of the university as an academic institution and the vision of it as a cultural center. Dr. Fernandes, what do you see as the right balance between the two?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I think that ASL in deaf culture are the core of the university. And always will be. And the university is trying to then include many other different types of deaf people that exist in the world and expand our awareness of them and provide excellence in academic instruction using American Sign Language as the foundation for that. We have outstanding faculty and staff, with degrees from all over the United States. And they're very well qualified to teach all kinds of deaf students in all kinds of disciplines. History, art, math, English, biology, chemistry. We offer top quality education, equal to and on par with hearing universities in the United States.

Dr. I. King Jordan: Can I add to that? Because I would take her statement about equal to other colleges and universities in the United States and give one little fact that people don't know, and that I think is very important about Gallaudet University. About half of the people who earn Bachelor's degrees at Gallaudet University go on to earn advanced degrees. Half. If you look at the national average of colleges and universities it's about 20%. So we're more than double the national average. People who get an education at Gallaudet get a high quality education that leads them to good jobs and to graduate study and graduate degrees.

Kojo Nnamdi: I. King Jordan is the president of Gallaudet University. He joins us in the studio, along with Jane Fernandes who is the president-designate of the university. Jane Fernandes is communicating with us through a sign language interpreter. And by the way Beth Graham, thank you very much for doing the sign language interpreting for us. We go to Kim in Frederick, Maryland. You're on the air, go ahead please.

Kim: Thank you Kojo. Thank you for taking my call. I have a nephew, 16 and applying to colleges, and he is all but refusing to use sign language. He wears double hearing aids and he just would rather not use sign language. And I'm wondering if this is going to impair his future education, whether or not he attends Gallaudet?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I would believe that you should encourage your nephew to come to Gallaudet and see how it goes. When I was 16, I really said the same thing: I never wanted to use sign language, because of the way I was raised. But, really, I think if he came to Gallaudet, it would change his life. He would have opportunity that he would have at no other university. He would be able to explore himself, his self-identity, and learn what it means to be deaf and find his own identity. Then when he graduates he'll be able to go out into the world and make changes for the better of deaf people in the world.

Dr. I. King Jordan: One of the real beauties of Gallaudet is that at Gallaudet, when you're deaf, you're not different. When you're a deaf person and you go to some other college or university, then you'll always be different, so you'll always be paying attention to your difference and other people will be paying attention to that difference. At Gallaudet, you can put that aside and, instead, focus on chemistry or focus on computer science or focus on whatever you're interested in. And that's really an important thing.

Kojo Nnamdi: Kim -- go ahead.

Kim: Going through it -- I think that's what he's going through now. He's feeling different. And now that I have it from the voice of reason, I will be able to e-mail it to him from the transcript. Thank you.

Kojo Nnamdi: Good luck, Kim. And good luck to your nephew.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Good luck.

Kim: Thank you.

Kojo Nnamdi: You can call us at 800-433-8850 or send e-mail to email@kojo.wamu.orgg. Where does the debate over cochlear implants stand today, Dr. Jordan? I know some people have worried over the years that cochlear implants will effectively weaken the usage of ASL, American Sign Language, and hurt deaf culture.

Dr. I. King Jordan: I don't think it should hurt in any way. Many of them are members of the deaf community and use American Sign Language. When I talk to parents of children considering implants I remind them there's periods of time when the implant isn't working, when the child will need to communicate in a way that he can't hear because his implant isn't working. So it's good to have both languages, American Sign Language and spoken and heard English language. So we're adjusting to that. I think the deaf community early on had some concerns about what the impact would be on our community. But now I think we're just bringing people with cochlear implants into the deaf community.

Kojo Nnamdi: Dr. Fernandes, people who can hear often have a difficult time understanding why cochlear implants would even be controversial in the deaf community, and I guess it really boils down to whether you see being deaf as a disability or simply as a different state of being.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, personally, I just see it as a way to live in the world. And I love being deaf. So I really, I have no problem with people being deaf. I certainly love my life as a deaf person. I wouldn't change it for anything.

Dr. I. King Jordan: It really is very difficult for people who can hear to understand that. I have that conversation every week, I have that conversation with somebody. People think, especially me, as an individual who grew up hearing then became deaf, they think that if I had a magic way to become a hearing person overnight I would take that. But honestly my life is very full. I'm very happy person. I have a wonderful family. Wonderful friends. I wouldn't want to change for anything.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: And I would just also like to say that I think people who are considering, you know, children who are in the public schools in the United States using sign language, I think all children, whether they're hearing or deaf, should be learning sign language. Because that actually gives people a different type of intellectual experience. It gives aids in spatial intelligence and spatial education, and that provides, that's provided through the use of American Sign Language. So hearing people are learning American Sign Language now.

Kojo Nnamdi: And remember we're providing real time captioning for this broadcast. You can find it at our Web site at WAMU.org. Check out the live scrolling transcript. If you're having any problems viewing it click view transcript. This e-mail we got from Carl in Washington D.C.. I heard that that there are cultural differences between the signing community that you can see or hear differences in accents and cadence in people from different parts of the country. For example that southern people have a draul. Is that true?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Oh, yes, that's very true. There are a lot of regional variations in sign language and dialects. Regional accents, so to speak. So yes it's very much is in accordance with what happens with people who speak English in the United States.

Kojo Nnamdi: Here's the other part of Carl's question. Since Gallaudet is an international center of learning, how do you deal with someone who is an African immigrant who's deaf. Is American Sign Language as a foreign language and how different is it from sign language used elsewhere?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, international deaf students, when they come to Gallaudet, if they don't know ASL at that time, and know English, we do have a program that they take for a couple of years to develop their skill in American Sign Language as well as their English competency. Most international students, they do a wonderful job. They pick up the language very readily, and English as well. So they are really a model for our American deaf students, because oftentimes they appreciate their education to an even greater level and they work very hard and they have a very strong work ethic.

Dr. I. King Jordan: As way of background, I think it's important for people to know that each country has its own sign language. So, for example, British sign language is markedly different from American Sign Language, while French sign language is more similar to American Sign Language. But if I watch someone signing Japanese, then I really can't understand anything. It's just completely different language. So a lot of people seem to have the thought or the notion that there's an international sign language, and that's not true. Each country has its own.

Kojo Nnamdi: Back to the telephones. Here we go to Adrian, who is at Gallaudet University. Adrian, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

Adrian: Hi. Of course this is Adrian. I'm calling to give my support for Dr. Fernandes. I think she'll do a wonderful job in her presidency here at Gallaudet University.

Kojo Nnamdi: Well --

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Thank you so much for that call.

Kojo Nnamdi: That was short and sweet. Adrian, thank you, indeed, for your call. We got an e-mail from Jennifer who says: As a recent graduate of Gallaudet, I saw the upheaval within the Gallaudet community at the announcement of the presidential selection, and I witnessed the resultant clamp down on opinion sharing and the disinformation campaign that the administration has used with both the press and internally. This is reminiscent of pre-1988 days. How do both of you, Doctors Fernandes and Jordan, respond to the sentiment in the Gallaudet community that the same thing is happening now and the only difference is that the perpetrators are deaf this time around?

Dr. I. King Jordan: I disagree. I don't think I could say anything about disinformation. We've been very careful to always be very factual in what we report and what we say. We're very, very strong, and that the issue of integrity is very important. At Gallaudet to me personally, to Dr. Fernandes, to the board. So I would disagree with that.

Kojo Nnamdi: Dr. Fernandes, care to respond?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I believe we're trying very hard to be very honest with issues as they arise. I tried to respond to issues that are presented to me as honestly as possible. That's all I have to say about that.

Kojo Nnamdi: That's all we have to say for the time being also because we have to take a short break. But we encourage you to keep calling us at 800-433-8850. Remember, we're providing real time captioning at our Web site at WAMU.org. You can check out the live scrolling transcript. You can also communicate with us by e-mail to email@kojo.wamu.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

Kojo Nnamdi: Welcome back. Jane Fernandes joins us in the studio. She served as provost at Gallaudet University since 2000. She's now president-designate. Also with us is I. King Jordan, who is the president of Gallaudet University. We remind you that we're providing real time captioning in partnership with Speche.com at our Web site WAMU.org. And that you can communicate if you'd like to join this conversation with us by e-mail at email@kojo.wamu.org. There's always the phone. You can call us, 800-433-8850. Here's Allen in Washington D.C. Hi, Allen.

Allen: Hello, Kojo. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with Dr. Fernandes in this case. Dr. Fernandes, I am aware of the situation that's been taking place at Gallaudet and you have epitomized, I think, grace under fire. And I think you're going to be a great president. And to that question, as you ascend into the presidency of Gallaudet, what do you think will be the first few steps that you're going to take to unite the university?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, it's very clear that I need to be very attentive, so that I plan my first year really to assume I don't know a lot about the Gallaudet community, that there's a lot left for me to learn. I will take the time to be very attentive and cafefully listen to people's concerns and really -- I know that we all have the concern about the future of the university in our hearts. And I look forward to moving forward with the university

Kojo Nnamdi: Thank you very much for your call, Allen.

Allen: Thank you.

Kojo Nnamdi: Dr. Jordan, it's my understanding that you expect to continue at the university assisting as president emeritus. What role do you see yourself playing?

Dr. I. King Jordan: I don't have a real role. I will help when I'm asked to help. I will be available to help. I'm not moving south or anything. I will stay in the Washington D.C. area, and I'll do anything I can to help the university. I tell people I bleed buff and blue, the university colors. I don't have an official role. January 1st Dr. Fernandes becomes president. The president emeritus is really an honor, and I will gracefully step aside and only be there to help when needed.

Kojo: He will ultramarathon off into the sunset, but usually he will be here right in town. We got an e-mail from Kez who says, “When I went to Gallaudet many of the teachers signed incredibly poorly. American Sign Language was not allowed to be the thing that united people. The tyranny of, quoting here, meeting people where they are in communication ability kept the student body fractured and kept classes must less effective than they could have been because teachers who could often had to repeat information in ASL and in English. While those could not do this left many students out. What will the new president do to address this situation or will it just continue?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, we are strengthening the use of ASL on campus by our faculty, our staff and our teachers. We are aware that that is a need that needs to be addressed. We are actually starting with a better system of evaluation of sign language competency, and we are strengthening our program of education to help people to support our faculty and staff as they gain their competency in the language. But most of our faculty I would say are very good signers, and there are maybe some that do need to improve. And we are going to try to focus on that and help them meet the needs of all of our students.

Kojo: Jane Fernandes herself is signing and communicating with you on the radio through the assistance of an interpreter. Back to the telephone, here is Joe in Westminster, Maryland. Joe, you are on the air, go ahead please.

Joe: Hi, I came to the show late, so maybe this has already been addressed. I just had a question. I am hard of hearing and recently dropped down 5 grand to get some hearing aids. I was wondering if people who have hearing difficulty … if people who are deaf have the same…experience the same kind of intolerance that people who are hard of hearing do.

Kojo: No we have not discussed that before, Joe. So here is your answer from Dr. Fernandes.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I’m sure that hard of hearing and deaf people experience many of the same types of frustrations. And sometimes some intolerance from the hearing people who don’t want to take the time to communicate with them.

Dr. I. King Jordan: And we do have many hard of hearing students at Gallaudet. Gallaudet University is not just for totally deaf people. It’s for deaf and hard of hearing people. There are many people at Gallaudet who use hearing aids and who are hard of hearing and who can speak well. That’s one of the important things about the university. There are many diffferent ways to be deaf.

Kojo: Joe, thank you for your call.

Joe: You’re welcome.

Kojo: On to Rob in southern Maryland. Rob, your turn.

Rob: Yeah, hi. Thanks for taking my call. I just want to know…this has to do with the hard of hearing and hearing. I wondered how the idea of discrimination against hearing is going to be addressed by the new president, and I’ll get off and listen.

Kojo: Thank you, Rob.

Dr. Fernandes: I’m not sure … you mean discrimination against hearing people. I’m not exactly sure with the intent of your question. Do you mean discrimination against hearing people?

Kojo: I’m afraid Rob dropped off the line. He is no longer with us. But, Rob, please feel free to call back and explain your question at greater length. 800.433.8850 is the number to call or you can send us an email to kojo @ wamu.org. Dr. Fernandes, I understand that you’ve used new technologies to make a language and communication center at Gallaudet more friendly to deaf students. How so?

Dr. Fernandes: Well, we are creating a new building, the Language and Communication Center that will be visu-centric. It’s visu-centric architecture, which will fit the visual needs of deaf people. We are building the first of its kind really in the world. Also we have a variety of technology that will be incorporated into this buidling such as video…technology videoconferencing technology, which comes from the Sorenson company, as well as technology in the classrooms that allow us to use videoconferencing from distant locations. Also, we have systems in place for people who use hearing aids. We also have visual media that allow deaf people to feel very comfortable in their surroundings in the new building. So we're looking forward so much to the completion of that building.

Dr. I. King Jordan: The idea of the building is fantastic, because that building will pull together all of the different disciplines that study deafness from all of the different points of view. We have American Sign Language and deaf studies as the foundation of the building. But we'll also have the hearing speech and language science people in the building. We'll have communication studies. People will linguistics, people from history, sociology, people who study deaf people in every different way. We'll now be meeting each other in the hallways and the faculty lounges doing collaborative research. Nothing like that is happening anywhere in the world. And it can only happen at Gallaudet. So it's really going to change the way we do research and study deafness and understand deaf people.

Kojo Nnamdi: Back to the telephone. Here now is Ross in Alde, Virginia you're on the air.

Ross: Good morning. Actually it's afternoon. Yes it's 1:00. I was wondering if there were any programs offered in society to teach people how to use sign language say for free. I have several deaf employees, some of them can read lips. So it makes it difficult to communicate with them in case there's an emergency or something. And I can listen for the response off the air.

Kojo Nnamdi: Okay. Thank you for your call, Ross.

Dr. I. King Jordan: Many churches and nonprofit organizations have sign language classes. If you look in your area at at a church or at a nonprofit organization, you might find people who are willing to volunteer. Many of our students do that. We have a service requirement. Students who graduate from Gallaudet must do community service. Some students might be interested in tutoring sign language as part of that to satisfy the service requirement and at the same time help your employees learn sign language.

Kojo Nnamdi: And I'm pretty sure your employees will understand and lip read with you, say, I am giving you a raise today. Which is probably something you should be saying to them right now, Ross. But let's get on to Cindy in Reston, Virginia. You're on the air. Go ahead.

Cindy: Good afternoon. I'm not hearing impaired but I wanted to clarify what I'm hearing on the radio. The incoming president is using an interpreter.

Kojo Nnamdi: Yes, correct.

Cindy: To sign for her?

Kojo Nnamdi: Yes.

Cindy: Doesn't that seem --

Kojo Nnamdi: She's not using the interpreter to sign for her. She is signing herself. The interpreter is speaking for her.

Cindy: Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. I misunderstood that.

Kojo Nnamdi: Okay. That's all you needed cleared up.

Cindy: That's all I needed to know. Because I find that hard to believe.

Kojo Nnamdi: Then we can move on to Rita in Fairfax County, Virginia. You're on the air, go ahead, please.

Rita: I have a question for both of the guests. I want to know if they feel it's fair for an individual provider to have to at their expense have an interpreter for a client.

Kojo Nnamdi: An individual provider of what?

Rita: Of medical services.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well --

Dr. I. King Jordan: The Americans With Disabilities Act assures that people who are deaf and hard of hearing have the same access to services that people who can hear have. So oftentimes that's a requirement that sign language interpreters be provided for deaf people. So I would answer, yes, I do think that's fair. I think it's not only fair but it's an important right for deaf people.

Rita: What about the right of the individual provider with limited reimbursement for their expenses? Wasn't there a time when each one of us took a family member someplace and if they didn't speak English or their English was limited, we provided someone to go with them? When you're not talking about a large facility, but you're talking about an individual provider who gets very limited reimbursement for a client or a patient coming in and the expense has to be borne by them rather than someone taking someone already from their community with them.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I think I would just say that you may want to look into the Americans With Disabilities Act, because it allows for reasonable accommodations.

Rita: That's exactly what I'm talking about. And it does not. All it does is put the total responsibility on the individual provider, and once they've done that, they go out head hunting for those people that are unaware of the laws and then say they haven't complied. I myself --

Kojo Nnamdi: Rita --

Rita: Because I worked for the Lighthouse For the Blind. I really believe in the rights of handicapped people. I believe facilities, public facilities should be made accessible in every way, but when you're talking about an individual provider, I think that it's unfair to the point of horrendous.

Kojo Nnamdi: Rita, I think if you check out provisions of the Americans With Disabilities Act, you will find there that you are supposed to be compensated for providing that service, and unfortunately we don't have a great deal of time left. But I would certainly consult with someone who is an expert on that law to find out what the source of your compensation would be, because as a small individual provider you're to be compensated for that. But thank you for your call. Good luck to you. On to Hobard in Rockville, Maryland.

Hobard: This is operator with the relay service. I'm speaking on behalf of a caller. They have a question. How do you characterize your leadership skills and management style and why do you feel that your leadership and management style, why many feel your leadership and management style is intimidating?

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Well, I characterize myself as a very quiet leader. I lead from behind, so to speak. I cultivate people from within and I encourage them to use their skills. I believe as provos, I've had to make difficult decisions that some people have different views on. But I think there have been some misunderstandings about who I am and about my leadership style within the Gallaudet community. As we're moving forward to our new relationship, I look forward to clarifying that.

Kojo Nnamdi: Dr. Jordan, you have stood four square behind Dr. Fernandes. You feel she's the right choice for Gallaudet University.

Dr. I. King Jordan: Absolutely. I do need to emphasize that the decision and the choice was made by the board of trustees after a very careful and deliberate search. But I know that Dr. Fernandes will make an outstanding president. And I look forward to seeing her step into the presidency and lead Gallaudet to even better heights.

Kojo Nnamdi: And thank you for your call, Hobart. We got this e-mail from Jenny who writes: I'm 15 years old and hearing I just got back from a deaf hearing summer camp. I met a lot of deaf kids, hard of hearing kids and hearing kids. It was really an eye opening experience. I know a little bit of ASL, and I learned a lot more. Instead of feeling left out as one of the only hearing kids, I felt included. The deaf/hard of hearing kids were very welcoming and open. They taught me new signs and made friends. I really felt included in deaf culture. I just wanted to comment on how wonderful, warm and welcoming the deaf culture is. They really are great people. I hope that I can continue to interact with them and continue learning. That from Jenny and I'm afraid we're out of time except for time to say good luck to you, Jane Fernandes.

Dr. Jane Fernandes: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me here.

Kojo Nnamdi: Jane Fernandes is the president designate of Gallaudet University and the wife of Jim Fernandes who is a great man because, well, you know why. I. King Jordan is the president of Gallaudet University, thank you very much for joining us.

Dr. I. King Jordan: Thank you Kojo. Nice to see you again, sir.

Kojo Nnamdi: I'm Kojo Nnamdi.