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Thumpaflash
thumpaflash
01 August 2008 @ 11:22 pm
Do The Deaf Deserve Reparations?  
 Well, we do if you believe this blogger, who posted this comment on Dr. Don G.'s blog "AGB's at it again":

How about class action lawsuit by the ex-oralists for their undue suffering growing up without sign language?

Please, give me a break!  No, we don't deserve reparations, and that is exactly what an attempted class action suit of this nature would amount to...

Your ancestors got treated shabbily?  Your mother didn't hug you enough?  Your first girlfriend's third cousin by her second grandfather called your ancestors a despicable name 100 years ago?  Tough nookies...Trying to hold today's generation accountable for the actions of people 100, 50, or even 30 years ago is not the answer.  It will lead to more antagonistic behavior and ill will.  It is akin to the black population asking for reparations for years of slavery, and it is WRONG there too.

Look, I want to say first of all, to any African Americans who are about to be potentially offended:  I'm sorry if some member of my family 150 -200 years ago owned slaves (I don't know of any that did, and I'm a big geneology buff), but, and I want to emphasize this now, I DON'T CONDONE IT AND NEVER WILL.  AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE HUMANS AND DESERVE TO BE TREATED AS SUCH, RACISM IS AN UGLY THING.  But it still doesn't justify reparations, and neither does the treatment that we deaf inviduals have endured from mis-guided misanthropes over the past 100 years. 

What we have to focus on as a culture, is the here and now, with the past as our guide, to create a roadmap for future coalescence among people of different cultures, education, races, and mindsets.  To ensure that we do not make the same mistakes, and leave a lasting (if sometimes tenous) peace.  To "smoke the peace pipe" and learn to work together towards a common goal.  Reparations will not ensure that, but coming together and deciding on a happy medium and talking to our legislators, and educating the ignorant or unknowing will.

Now the overall context of Dr. Don G.'s blog was not about this, it was a very interesting and thought-provoking vlog, as most of his are.  However, the comment above, I thought deserved to be addressed, especially since Dr. Don encouraged her comment and basically said he believed that would be a good idea.  It is NOT.

 
29 comments | Leave a comment
 
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(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 04:26 am (UTC)
Eddie,

I understand what you're saying, and I don't really expect that it would happen or that we would get any money. But at the same time it would be a symbolic recognition of the damage that has been done to Deaf children to this date because of their actions.

--Don G.
Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 2nd, 2008 01:00 pm (UTC)
Don G:

Thanks for commenting! My point is, is someone wants a symbolic gesture, then why not go to Congress, as the African American population did, and get them to issue one similar to the one the House just passed this past week?

Additionally, no sooner had they done that, then the issue of monetary reparations was raised again, and even Barak Obama implied that would be a potential goal. It will never happen, and not because there isn't recognition that those wrongs were perpretated against African Americans, but because it is not feasible, workable, etc. Who would the money come from? How much would each African American get? Would they have to PROVE their ancestors were slaves, etc. Same for the Deaf, how much, who benefits, etc. It's just not feasible.

Thanks again for commenting, I always enjoy watching your vlogs and reading your blogs.

Eddie
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 10:37 pm (UTC)
I am the one who suggested the class action lawsuit idea. It may be a far-fetched notion, but nothing is impossible.
A public apology from AGB or on the legislative level is one way to go. I agree with Don that the lawsuit would be symbolic by delivering a powerful message to the public that there are live human beings who believe they are emotionally and in some instances physically scarred from growing up in Oral Deaf Education. I believe they need some kind of closure so they could move on with their lives.

There are parents who admit that they were told by AGB/oral ed advocates that sign language was bad and that it would hinder their children speech development. The same parents say if they had the opportunity to raise their children all over again, they would introduce sign language in their lives.

(My child has a cochlear implant and does well in both oral ed and in the mainstreamed educational setting with an interpreter...to prevent you from assuming that I am anti-oral, anti-Ci, or anti-AGB of which I am not).

Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 3rd, 2008 03:30 am (UTC)
I understand completely the desire for a symbolic victory to awaken the masses, so to speak, I just happen to disagree with a class action suit as a viable method.

If you will recall, the ADA was a tremendous method of awakening the general public to the plight of people with all disabilities. I happen to think, that due to the toothlessness of the ADA, we have squandered a tremendous amount of potential good will even more so than what we have actually generated.

I also want to address something else...If you will read my entire blog, you will see that I am a big supporter of inclusiveness in the deaf community. I never knowingly assume something about somebody, I wait until they prove something about themselves. So no worries about me assuming you are anti-oral, anti-CI, anti-AGB, etc. I appreciate you taking the time to read and comment on my blog, as well as making your case. Thoughtful discussion is always welcome and encouraged here.

Come again!

Eddie
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 04:43 am (UTC)
mixed feelings ...
On the one hand, it's undeniable that the lives of many deaf people were negatively affected when oralism was the law of the land for 100 years. It's been a battle to get ASL back in the classroom and in the community where it belongs. It's been a challenge to convince the hearing majority that the oppression of deaf people is a real problem and needs to stop, like yesterday. Many parallels there with racism and other -isms. On the other hand, I wonder if some deaf people would feel soothed if the AGBell association issued a formal public apology for the harmful actions of its founder and members. Would an apology at least make them feel validated, emotionally healed, able to let go of the past, and look forward to a brighter future? It seems to me that on many fronts, life for deaf people is loads better than it was in 1880, or even 1950. Not perfect, but better. Personally, I've always been a forward-looking person. Even if s*** happened to me, I can't change the past, and tomorrow is another day. Perhaps for certain people, nursing their gripes and keeping their anger alive gives meaning to their lives -- wouldn't therapy be a lot more practical than a meaningless apology?
Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 2nd, 2008 01:03 pm (UTC)
Re: mixed feelings ...
Agreed. That's a very possible conclusion. My friend Dennis Jones, Jr., author of Tarnished Halos and Crooked Fences, wrote a great article on how much progress has been made in the past 20 years. You can check it out on his Surdus Publications website.

Reparations, class action suits and the like are a method of living in the past, we need to be more forward thinking and turn our eyes toward the future, toward the rising sun instead of the setting sun.

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment.

Eddie
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 04:57 am (UTC)
You're misconstruing the issue
Reparations are not the same thing as damages awarded from a class-action suit.

The damages awarded from a lawsuit are charged to the perpetrator. If the perpetrator goes bankrupt in the process, then there is a limit to the amount of the settlement.
Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 2nd, 2008 12:54 pm (UTC)
Re: You're misconstruing the issue
Thanks for your comment, but NO, I am not misconstruing the issue. Yes, I am VERY aware of the difference between a class action suit and reparations. The point I was making was, that seeking a class action suit is AKIN to asking for reparations. Who would they (the people who sign on for the suit) sue?

I understand your extremely technical point you are making (I was employed at Lowe's at one time, who went through several class action suits during my time there, so I am familiar with the process), however, it is you who are missing the point of my blog.

But thanks for taking the time to comment!

Eddie
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 02:53 pm (UTC)
Re: You're misconstruing the issue
No, you really ARE misconstruing the issue. Reparations and damages from class-actions suits are two completely different kettle of fish.

In a class action suit, a jury (or judge) is convinced that direct harm was caused, and that it's more than just an instance of something bad happening as an inevitable result of living in the world.

Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 2nd, 2008 03:06 pm (UTC)
Re: You're misconstruing the issue
Please, understand...I said AKIN, which means similar in nature to. NOT exactly the same, but similar. Believe me, it is more than just "an instance of something bad happening as an inevitable result of living in the world" in both instances (African Americans and the Deaf).

You can argue the semantics all you want, I even acknowledged in the last reply that it was legally/technically true, what you said. My point is, is that pursuing a class action suit of this nature IS similar to demanding reparations. Both are requests for monetary remedies to be made for something bad happening to a group, culture, or class of people, for example.

Please get off the semantics and focus on the core of the subject. If you don't like the language I used, or the manner in which I present it, you are welcome to disagree or simply not read the post and comments. No one is forcing you to, it's sort of like a TV program, you don't like it, change the channel.

That's the last I will discuss of this issue with you, if you can't see my point, we will just agree to disagree and move on to more productive discussion.

Eddie
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 09:08 am (UTC)
Deaf reparation
Politics of blame, doesn't solve anything. Most end up in education decided via their parents, who in turn decide mainly via cost and current availability. So they have to sue their parents don't they ? Because they feel loyal to parents, they then have to find another target.

I thought American education was more 'free' than ours is ? and determined parents can set up via demand what they want ? This seems to suggest parents don't demand signing schools doesn't it ? I think most parents approach education via what they feel is the best option for the child, I do, I am unmoved by political or rights approaches, I would go via the school and what their record was. At the end of the day not all children will be first, it is too easy to 'blame' the system then if that happens isn't it ?

If there is ONLY an oral school, or ONLY a signing school, or the parents are not well off, then that decides. There is no long or agonized deliberation about culture.. much as they would like to think there is. It's what is seen to work, not what is preffered.... I think deaf schools have failed to prove their worth in many respects certainly in the UK. Dare I point out, Gallaudet failed too, and got a warning about this ? Not good PR for the world's first deaf university.
Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 2nd, 2008 01:14 pm (UTC)
Re: Deaf reparation
Excellent points! I would like to point out though, that many here are of the opinion that AG Bell and others have forced oralism-based education upon parents by making them believe speech is the only way to "succeed" in the "real" world. Of course, we know better, but it is a very real concern, that hearing parents of deaf children are basically coerced into ignoring the obvious benefits of sign language acquisition at an early age.

Please feel free to share with my readers more about the UK system of determining educational prospects for the deaf and hard of hearing. I'm sure many would enjoy reading and debating on those topics, I know I certainly would. I'm ashamed to admit, I know almost nothing about how things happen on the "other side of the pond".

Thanks,
Eddie
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 03:10 pm (UTC)
Re: Deaf reparation
Hey Eddie,

Thoughtful post! There was a time I was able to make a case for a class-action lawsuit - and it reached the point of "Who the hell ya gonna sue?" :)

Here's the link:

http://www.deaf-culture-online.com/deaf-class-action.html

Drolz



Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 3rd, 2008 03:34 am (UTC)
Re: Deaf reparation
Thank you for following up on our emails this morning by providing this link, Mark! Much appreciated.

For those of you who may not know, Drolz is Mark Drolsbaugh, a good friend, and one of the first (if not THE first) people to take me under his wing when I first transferred to Gallaudet. Many good times and good memories with this wonderful author, and I'm proud to say, soon to be a collaborative partner along with me and Dennis Jones, Jr. in a new book venture. It promises to be an exciting book!

Thanks again, Drolz!

Eddie
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 03:05 pm (UTC)
Education reparations
Hi Eddie,

Maybe we should not focus on monetary reparations, but education and language reparations.

Back in 1880, they should have amend oral/speech instead of completely threw out American Sign Language as our visual need of a language to learn how to learn.

John Egbert
Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 2nd, 2008 03:08 pm (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
That's a good idea, and exactly what I proposed in an earlier comment reply to another poster. But it can be achieved through the legislative process as well, as evidenced by the recent House apology for slavery. If that still doesn't work, then by all means, it is a free country, people can choose to sue if they wish. I'm just of the opinion that it would be counter-productive.

Eddie
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 10:18 pm (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
Only problem with going through Congress is that Oralism was not undertaken as a matter of national policy, whereas Slavery was (Blacks were in the Constitution as 3/5 of a White man, if I recall that fraction correctly). So I don't think Congress would see it as incumbent on themselves to make a national apology on behalf of the U.S. AGB is a private organization that pushed its agenda on the schools and children of the U.S. (and the world), so it would seem to me that a class action suit, if it were to happen, would be the most appropriate route.

--Don G.
Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 3rd, 2008 04:05 am (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
Don:

Very valid point regarding the difference between Slavery being an act of national policy and Oralism being more towards a private enterprise pushing itself upon the US and world. However, (and I can't believe I'm saying this) couldn't an argument be made that their very silence in not intervening in what was an obviously wrong avenue of action (or inaction as it may be) was tantamount to national policy or dereliction of duty to protect those unable to protect themselves? I'm trying to look at it from your point of view and playing devil's advocate with myself here, so bear with me. :-)

Even if you were to get a class action suit to a hearing, and that is a big if, given the judical people in place right now, it falls back upon "who ya gonna sue?" as my friend Mark says. If you sue AGB, they WILL make the claim that it was the educated opinion of the times, and that their policies have been changed to reflect the true science now. They could even throw it back in our faces by saying "look, don't be upset with us and blame us for being better at marketing our perspective. Be upset at those ASL and NAD advocates who should have done a better job of telling everyone how beneficial sign is at a much earlier time than they actually did".

Nevermind that that is an obviously flawed argument to a common sense person, because the judicial system can be anything BUT common sense, as evidenced by judges dismissing protections under the ADA for people who wear hearing aids, finding them not disabled enough to be disabled, effectively. Technically, as a matter of law, I would say there is not a single judge in the land who would allow this to be certified as a class action lawsuit...

Thanks for commenting!

Eddie
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 10:45 pm (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
I am not disagreeing with you. Your concerns are valid and it gives me a minute to think it over whether or not the class action is counter-productive.

Bashing AGB by calling them names, demonstrating at their conventions, rejecting cochlear implants/oralism and any anti-AGB rhetoric is not exactly my cup of tea. That is counter-productive in my opinion.

I feel by doing some kind of legal action is going to generate desired results and closure for those deaf adults whose lives have been impacted negatively by oral deaf education.

nacpac
Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 3rd, 2008 04:13 am (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
Agreed..except for the legal action suit. I will save some redundancy by asking you to read the other comments I have made for my rationale on that, but I personally feel that about the only way anyone could seek redress in court is if they were able to prove that they PERSONALLY were hurt by oral deaf education.

Should that actually come to pass, then an attorney COULD possibly make a motion to have to case certified as a class action suit, and enjoin AGB or other oralism advocates as co-defendents at that point. More than likely though, it would have to happen on a local level, such as a school district being sued, etc., before it could rise to that level. But it would take a heck of an attorney, deep pockets, and quite possibly the most liberal judge alive, one hungry for national press time, in a lifetime federal judgeship position where they can't be voted out, or just 2 bricks shy of a full load mentally.

Hell, if all else fails and Obama loses this election (I still think he will), maybe those people interested in a class action lawsuit could hire him to be their mouthpiece, since he is about the smoothest talker around. :-)
(Anonymous) on August 3rd, 2008 02:52 am (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
The purpose in any kind of reparations is to repair damage, as was done to Japanese Americans who lost homes and businesses in the resettlement during WW2. Some Jews also received reparations for loss of their kin in the Holocaust. There might be a case made for African Americans receiving reparations for their personal losses during slavery, even though it might be irrepearable. The reforms of welfare, free college education, employment incentives and affirmative action could be considered part of reparations.

So the Social Security stipend, Vocational Rehabilitation support, affirmative action for the disabled, and ADA incentives can be considered reparations in part.

What we need to consider is the RESULT of our asking for redress of damage done by oralism. If we wake up AGB, parents, hearing people and related people to the educational, social and family damages and how it can be prevented, that is the whole battle won. Not for monetary damages, but a whole new understanding and system of education. If it results in AGB changing its approach and emphasis, even better.
(Anonymous) on August 2nd, 2008 05:50 pm (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
All good points above. I'd add that AGBell and other people of his time (1880s) probably thought they were doing a good thing by promoting oralism. He was a professional teacher of elocution and believed deaf people could be taught to speak. Oralism was supposed to be the cure-all for deaf people, just like ASL is supposed to be the cure-all right now. Given AGBell's background as a fluent signer, the loving spouse of an intelligent deaf wife, and son of a deaf mother, I'm certain he did not have evil intentions towards the deaf community. Oralism was simply a good idea that had unintended ill effects, like the atomic bomb of the 40s. At that time too, scientists knew that A-bombs would change the world and recommended that it not be built, but were overruled. As for parents being "coerced" into oralism, I don't think they needed much convincing. Wanting your child to be able to talk is a no-brainer when you don't know anything else, and there ISN'T anything else where you live.
(Anonymous) on August 3rd, 2008 06:08 am (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
Eddie,

You should read two books: "Never the Twain Shall Meet" (about AGB and EM Gallaudet) and "Forbidden Signs" (which shows how AGB played into the changing societal conditions to further his agenda). Also, there is a lot of evidence that shows AGB knew his "science" was wrong, but he twisted the statistics and information to make it look like he was right. His luck was in pushing something that appealed to most of society (Hearing parents). But still doesn't mean that he wasn't pushing a faulty and harmful paradigm.

--Don G.
(Anonymous) on August 3rd, 2008 08:03 am (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
Excellent point about the good intentions of AGBell. He may have sincerely believed oralism was the wave of the future. So did Hitler believe that eugenics was the future...so did many Southern state governments believe that slavery was appropriate employment for what they saw as ignorant and backward peoples while being good for their economy. Most people agreed with internment of Japanese Americans in their rage after Pearl Harbor.

If anything, reparations can be a learning experience...to think first about all the ramifications before making decisions about human beings.
Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 3rd, 2008 05:11 pm (UTC)
Re: Education reparations
While I see the sarcastic point you are trying to make, I don't think it entirely accurate to even closely link AGBell with Hitler.

We have to remember that we live in a (supposedly) far more enlightened time. Back then, it was absolutely ridiculous to even consider arguing with what a "learned scientist" quoted as fact, for example. This is why I disagree with reparations, because of the mindset at the time these things happened. We can't change what happened, we can only learn from it and move on.

Also, reparations will DO NOTHING to change the minds of many people, plain and simple. Many would view it as a government or judicial kowtow to a group of individuals they believe to be whiners. They will not take the time to learn the situation, nor the facts behind it, they will simply follow, like a lemming, their 60 second media soundbite and make an instantaneous judgement.

Experience is the only thing that will change many people's minds. Having a positive interaction with a deaf or hard of hearing person, reading positive news stories that do not focus on "Oh, look what this poor little deaf kid can do despite being deaf", and so on. Which is exactly why I took Ridor to task so hard for his denunication of cops specifically, and in general, his interaction with one officer who simply tried to make conversation with him. I'll tell you this, if I were to make an attempt at speaking to someone in German, for example, and they basically dissed me and ignored me, I'd have a bad impression immediately of most German-speaking people like anyone else would.

Believeing that reparations will be a learning experience, and a positive one at that, is a little naive, to be honest.
(Anonymous) on August 3rd, 2008 10:10 pm (UTC)
Off the point
Bit off the point on this subject -- so far, Eddie has posted 11 comments out of 25.

Take it easy, chatterbox. ;-)

r-
Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 3rd, 2008 10:27 pm (UTC)
Re: Off the point
Make it 12 out of 27.... :-)

I prefer to respond to individual commenters as much as possible. I see and understand other blogs where the blogger responds to 3 or 4 commenters on one reply themselves, I don't like those as much because sometimes sorting through the answers can get confusing.

But I will shut up for a while. :-)
(Anonymous) on August 6th, 2008 03:23 am (UTC)
Re: Off the point
I NORMALLY DO NOT post commewnts but this one drew out a comment in me! I read through all the comments here along with the original post.

My first thing is I have to admit that I when I first read thupa's post about Don G idea to have a class action suit for Oralists was "oh geez" then Drolz kindly reminded us about that article he wrote some time ago and I sighed a sigh of relief "yes!" and as I waded through the rest of these another thought came to mind: is anyone remotely aware of the current battle that NAD is waging (along with AGB, COAT, and numerous other organizations) right now to RESTORE the ADA back to its' orignial intent when it was signed in 1990 to include EVERYTHING it was intended and yes this includes Oralists, people who sign, and all of everything in between?

It simply does not make sense to add another piece of legislation at this time until this is settled along with the current piece of legislation on the drawing board also sponsored by just about every organization out there called (shoot my figners aren't talking) as I believe the Technology Bill for the 21st Century that will get web pages, Internet, Text Devices and much more brought into line for Deaf, Deaf -Blind users and YES Oral persons who need things to be close capitoned or translated and ASL translated. Reverse and E911 is included.

So my point is, this is a nice thought about the Class Action but right now the powers that be, do not need this ONE MORE THING on their plates, we have TWO very important pices of legislation that will actually HELP everyone and in fact repratations are not exactly going to help but are going to hinder those pieces of legislation. Those two pieces of legislation include education.

IF Alan would like to see more Education, changes for the future and all, I would recommend getting on board with these agencies and helping them work towards making those changes....TOGETHER. Use your energy as Thumpa in your part of your world and do what you can. Step by step those changes will happen.

Or like Drolz and Dennis do, go publish a book about those things, the more people read and learn, the more changes can be made.

Thumpaflash[info]thumpaflash on August 6th, 2008 05:06 am (UTC)
Re: Off the point
Thanks for the comment. I want to point something out. The ADA Restoration Act of 2008 is currently in the Senate, having been passed in the House. The Justice Department has issued some requests for changes in the wording, and apparently, some of it is more business-friendly, the intent of the bill is to protect the rights of the disabled.

Please go out, educate yourself on what the proposed changes are, what the wording of the bill is, etc., and CONTACT YOUR ELECTED LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE and voice your thoughts!

While I see this commentor's point about having different versions of bills flying around, and so forth, I also want to point out that is why bills are sent into committee before coming up for vote. To compare against any possible redundant bills in another chamber or committee, to tweak the wording of the bills, etc. Most states have a Legislative Research Commission to help the state-level representatives avoid duplicity in bill filing, to merge pre-filed bills that are similar in nature, etc. The senatorial and congressional staff of each elected official usually do this on the national level, although there is research assistance available too. That is why it is so important, if you contact the elected officials, to beforehand check and see who ALL the sponsors and co sponsors are, and copy ALL of them on your correspondance.

Thanks for the comment!
 
 

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