“Let’s leave AGB alone!” Why?
Many of you have commented before about DBC’s calling attention to the AGB Association’s activities toward the Deaf and have said “that is old history, things have changed, let’s move on into the current era”, most recently, Lauren Stewart “Discussion: Strong Vlogger/Blogger“. I take a look at the implications of ignoring AGB here.
Richard Roehm said,
July 22, 2008 @ 12:05 am
I’m happy to be resting on an island of sanity amid a deaf sea of chaos!
http://ocdac.wordpress.com/
Richard Roehm
MM said,
July 22, 2008 @ 12:27 am
Confrontation will do nothing, except fuel more dissent, that’s the facts of the issue. Perhaps you need to step back and let the A G Bell gale blow itself out. Your discourse suggests ‘Deaf’ are the injured party, it does seem 6 of one and half a dozen of the other now.
There is no ‘win’ for either this way, I could suggest co-existing for a while and build on what there is in common, is the only way to progress at present, you cannot win by seeing who can shout the loudest. In the end you will HAVE to sit down and discuss a way forward, i.e. if you really want to sort things out, if you are hoping to win, you won’t, they are as determined as you are.
Why should you back off ? It shows them you are the bigger person and want to reconcile difference, it is then more likely they will invite you to their table, but you must do the same, that’s how it works. Your anger shows, but this isn’t the way to get over the message you want. Soldiers fight, politicians determine the peace !
Waging war is easy, waging peace much harder…. seek out the moderates of A G Bell who are more likely to listen. Accept if you are a ‘DBC’ or ‘Deaf’ militant you will have stay out of it and leave it to them. Active campaigners are the people who knock on the doors, get them open, but once opened, it is they whose job is over, the peace-makers then carry it on to make things work.
Excellent blog said,
July 22, 2008 @ 12:33 am
Excellent points, Don.
Some people might point out that AG Bell’s actions are not governmental, but actually their actions *are* governmental when they lobby state governments to pass laws that put requirements on insurance companies.
So your reference to Rev. Niemöller’s poem is appropriate.
J.J. said,
July 22, 2008 @ 12:50 am
I am not exactly a fan of Agbell…but one must admit that the deaf community does have flair for the dramatic. Confronting Agbell or being obsessed with them still does the deaf community no favors.
As for babies signing…I am all for that…and to be honest I was surprised to find that the DBC never asked Agbell for a formal sit down meeting? Agbell is better than DBC is at reaching young parents of deaf babies. DBC should change its approach and direct its attention towards medical professionals and audiologists who can tell parents that their babies won’t be talking for 6-10 months anyway..and that they should teach their babies sign language to get a head start on their education. Or try to convince medical professionals, audiologists, AVT personnell, Oral teachers, and etc…that teaching sign language to babies in no way reduces their ability to learn to “listen and talk for a life time”.
We can go back a hundred years…and point out everything Agbell has done…but what good does it do for deaf babies? Will it help the deaf community? I say no…I think there are other ways…..better and more positive ways…
I believe we have bigger problems than Agbell…I mean I couldn’t see “Dark Knight” on opening night unless I were willing to drive 60+ miles one way. That’s a bigger issue to me at least….
Just my 2 cents…
Fingers said,
July 22, 2008 @ 3:42 am
AGBELL never, never, never respect to deaf people becuase AGBELL is against ASL!!!
EricJindra said,
July 22, 2008 @ 5:20 am
Good morning,
I disagree with you. We don’t need to act up for what they are doing against us. We need to be humble, kindful, gentle, and show grace to AGB at any reason. That way, we will remove their barriers against us and then we will win their mind and heart. Lord said he will exalt the humble. I strongly agree that we should leave AGB alone and do business with them. What do I mean do business with them? Eric’s blog at http://valhallian.com/?p=20 said it all.
Thanks,
Eric
DrDonG said,
July 22, 2008 @ 7:24 am
MM and others –
We have been trying to “coexist” with AGB for the past 100 years, and what has it gotten us? Nowhere. Individuals did speak up against AGB, but to date, we had never presented a coordinated, united front against them. A change of tactics is definitely needed. Public awareness of their underhanded methods is one way to start. Staying quiet about them isn’t. Been done already, and we’ve seen the results.
DrDonG said,
July 22, 2008 @ 7:29 am
JJ –
I agree with you that educating the medical professionals to change their perspectives and approaches toward their patients is another good thing to work on, and we need to do that. But that is a piecemeal aproach, and progress would likely be extremely slow. And progress would be slower because our efforts would likely be hampered by AGB’s “advocacy” for “independence’ through listening and talking”.
brenster- said,
July 22, 2008 @ 7:39 am
Yep, “leaving AGBell alone” is not going to make AGBell leave us alone. Just like Don said, look at the history of over 100 years (129+ to be more close). Another example, AGBell’s ridiculous letter to PepsiCo.
They filmed a commercial based on an old joke of our Deaf community, in the other word about us. Did AGBell leave us alone? No, AGBell must jump in and interfere saying negative things about us, the “signing community.” AGBell just couldn’t stand it that there is a commercial lighting positive part of our community, so much that it must throw in negative comments about us.
Yes, we should focus on our progress but at the same time, we must act as watchdog on AGBell and others.
One thing I must say, we should cease spending our time and energy pulling down one another like what many of you have been doing, and funnily enough continuing doing today! I mean, come on, complaining over trivial issues, like 22-minute vlog.
deafchipmunk said,
July 22, 2008 @ 7:41 am
Hi DrDonG,
Thanks for bringing it out.
At first, I thought ignoring AGBell would be an effective weapon. But I realise I was wrong. Look at history.
For the past 100 years, we have ignored AGBell.
Edward Miner Gallaudet and his allies fought against A. G. Bell and his followers. When Edward Miner Gallaudet died, almost no one has fought against AGBell and its allies.
See what happened today.
Should we continue to ignore AGBell for another 100 years? I don’t think so. We should take our integrity back that Edward Miner Gallaudet fought for.
I do not support “History repeating itself”.
Deafchip
deafchipmunk said,
July 22, 2008 @ 7:50 am
Same with many Deaf leaders who fought against A.G.Bell and his allies in late 19th century and early 20th century. When they died, almost no one replaced them, A.G.Bell and his followers thrived.
Deafchip
EricJindra said,
July 22, 2008 @ 8:05 am
Probably many of us don’t understand what is different between fighting against or compete against AGB…
I am want to see us to compete with AGB because that way will gain everyone for better cause. It is very nature thing to compete against anyone. In fact I am competing against you and myself for something.
If we are fighting against and we are pushing someone to be either on one side of whatever it is. For example, War and people will suffers death, destructing the economy system, destructing our infrastructure, etc. Mostly of time AGB wins society to be on their sides because we weren’t professional and very civil to society. Sad but we need to improve our institutions and Gallaudet University to educate of being professional, civil to society and approach the society in very properly way.
Our country is built base on capitalism system. Many of us either loves it or hates it. Capitalism system, it is best system than anything else that we know. If you hate capitalism, then my favorite two words for you, “too bad!”
Peace out and behold Jesus for salvation,
Eric
DrDonG said,
July 22, 2008 @ 8:11 am
Eric J -
Competition only works if there is a “level playing field”. AGB has not allowed a “level playing field” for over 120 years. As I said before in “The AGB Hydra”, AGB effectively acts as a “monopoly”, and as we all know, monopolies are outlawed because they don’t allow fair competition.
The Rogue said,
July 22, 2008 @ 8:28 am
Dr. Don G.,
You got a really excellent point about AGB organization. From my standpoint, the reason I tend to say “Leave AGB alone” because DBC are brand new organization as you know as 11 months old. I completely understand that we need to fight AGB organization for our Deaf rights. Remember, AGB has all the lawyers, some of “ignorant” hearing employees are working there and knows how to manipulate the system front of media or whatever they done. AGB can make DBC looks more vulnerable and isolate as “whining” organization. I do not mean to call them “Whining”. That’s what AGB”S perspective to create themselves looks so called “innocent” organization. You can agree or disagree with my point of views.
I already had experiences with fighting with the system with State government and other services for the Deaf. Some of services were simply ignored at us even I wrote very positives letter to the Governor, Senates and Legislatures without name calling or degrading some of the services. Some of services felt threatened by my letter that I stated they did not do any actions for me or any deaf people as compassionate. They simply neglected us. I gave out the details of services that I met with list of dates and places. Governor, Senates and Legislatures received my letters and they contacted any services about my letter. One of service got so mad at me and labeled me as being negatives and whining letter even this person was not supervisor, this person was a employee. I forwarded this person’s letter to one of Governor’s aides. However Governor’s aides caught the person for lying and manipulating because the person chose to close my case without gave them good explanation.
I have another story. I watched most amazing story in History Channel during World War II, two Jewish prisoners tried to escape from concentration camp after they overheard German soldiers discussed to kill more prisoners as wipe out before Allies arrived the camps as Germans was losing the war. Two Jewish prisoners made all the plans as prepared to escape the prison carefully. They decided to hide the large pile of dirt bags as prepare other prisoners to move the dirt bags to the truck. Two prisoners hid under pile of dirt bags and waited for few days until the truck arrived. The two prisoners decided to move to the truck immediately and hid one of the box during night time. Two prisoners covered themselves with gas so it prevents the German Sheppard to smell their scents. Next day, two prisoners managed to escape the prison and wandered through the farms under very risky German territory. Two prisoners were so lucky to run in with friendly German farmer and helped them to hide farmer’s home. Next day, the German farmer guided them to Jewish organization.
Two prisoners met the leader of Jewish organization. They told the Jewish leader that Germans are planned to kill all the prisoners and wipe them out before Allies arrived. The leader doesn’t believe two prisoners’ story and asked all the questions about missing Jewish families with their surnames. The prisoners finally proved it. However, the Jewish Leader decided to meet one of the Nazi general without Jewish organization acknowledged about it (bad moves). The Jewish leader wanted to see if Nazi General was telling the truth about the camps. Nazi General denied it and manipulated the Jewish Leader. Guess what, Jewish leader believed the Nazi General and decided to not pursuit any more information. Suddenly, Nazi General reported the camps and told them in hurry to kill all the prisoners as soon as possible. One week later, Allies arrived the camps and rescued the prisoners. Jewish leader found out that he was scammed by Nazi leader and chose to resign. Two escaped prisoners saved over million of prisoners’ lives. If Allies did not arrived after Jewish leader spoke with German General, million of Jewish prisoners could have wiped out immediately by Nazi.
The Rogue
Chris said,
July 22, 2008 @ 8:31 am
Not only the Deaf Community suffered from AGBell, but people like mcconnell. He post this comment,
“My Plan is working flawlessly….
*rubs hands*
heh heh…..”
But now, Paotie took it out as it may be too revealing that mcconnell’s plan could actually be about having someone like dr hocokan, aka, Barry Sewell on a project to destroy DBC.
Not only trying to destroy DBC, but support AGBell’s plan on hear and speak only for Deaf Babies!
The Rogue said,
July 22, 2008 @ 8:41 am
“Karma” will hit AGB in someday! : )
dog food said,
July 22, 2008 @ 9:07 am
I remember there was a farmer,
a red-necked farmer;
He had an IQ of dirt
and a heart full of hurt.
Sat on his porch with his gun,
Bitterness on his face like rum.
“cant come take me land,
that gosh dam dirty bank-man.”
And that man did came,
Came calling him by his name,
waving a bright yellow paper
But the farmer saw his raper.
He shot his gun, it blast’d
the poor banker man dropp’d.
Imagine the old fool’s disbelief
for yellow paper came to give him relief.
MM said,
July 22, 2008 @ 9:15 am
People who use A G Bell make a choice don’t they ? Are they coherced into it ? Just asking…. As far as I can read there is nobody forced to use A G Bell’s services or accept thri policy I did read the entrance forms for A G Bell, they make it clear what policy tyhey have,so it kmust follow all who agree, agree with the policies too.
I thought Americans support freedom of choice ? If A G Bell is reflecting user choice, there is nothing you can say or do to change it, via attacking them. Why not concerntrate on your ‘Deaf’ world ? which is going down the plughole rather rapidly while this pointless ‘war’ continues. You are deaf you can just ignore what they say easily enough…
If A G Bell is a monoply, it is one by popular choice surely ? Most prefer it ? If e.g. you have a school that is set up by Catholics, then, can they not refuse to take in children from other faiths ? like Islamics ? I am not plugging A G Bell here, just suggesting that it wouldn’t be where it is if they openely discriminated against the deaf….. Do you think it helps to put up a vblog with nazi’s on it ?
DrDonG said,
July 22, 2008 @ 9:18 am
Dog Food –
I fail to see the relevance of this…
MM —
AGB HAS discriminated against the Deaf — overtly and covertly… and Hearing people abetted them because AGB played into Hearing people’s fears and misconceptions about Deaf people and sign language. Read your history.
Valhallian said,
July 22, 2008 @ 9:19 am
Don,
I do see where you are coming from, its a question of whether or not I agree. At the beginning of your vlog, you say “United, we stand. Divided, we are colonized”
It does bring to question your thinking on that. Now from what I read in your links, it was midwest air center that turned away ASL expo, and not ag bell themselves. Beleive it or not, that is actually common practice. Most convention centers do not encourage competition among groups at the same time and considering the fact that both organization basically target the deaf, it could be perceived as competition.
To further elaborate on that point, you could probably drive around several strip malls in your area, odds are that most of them do not have stores that actually compete with each other, for example, you probably would not see two pizza restuarants in the same stip mall, such as a Domino’s Pizza and a Pizza Hut. Granted you would see more than one restuarant, but they are different types of restuarants, such as a pizzeria, chinese, deli, etc. And there may be a rare occasion where you would see two pizzerias in one strip mall, but if you do see that, then its a dumb move on the landlords part, simply because one of them will likely not be a long term tenant.
Now I can see how you may perceive AG Bell as a monopoly, but the way I see it, there really arent any other organizations that focus on the oral deaf, which is likely why they get the attention of new hearing parents of deaf children.
There was a time when AG Bell Association did not allow any signing anywhere inside, that has changed over time. As they now provide asl interpreters, they allow their deaf members to sign, they just don’t promote it.
Now back in history, we had a long history of slavery among black people and while I don’t have my actual facts, but I would imagine that it lasted well over 130 years before it ended and black people are now accepted as part of today’s society. Things do change over time, but we as deaf people, have to help make it happen.
Now you have clearly seen newspaper articles that say AG Bell is not against sign language. That actually opens the door and we should take advantage of it. However, if we go totally against their concept of CI/AVT, they will not let us in based on that reason alone. They also say that the hearing parents of deaf babies should be fully informed. That being the case, if they dont allow a bilingualism organization in, it can get out in the media that they have contradicted themselves. However, the way DBC did it, it was the wrong way and they do not have the opportunity to say how AG Bell contradicted themselves. They just blatantly went after them without even any formal discussions. That should have waited until after formal discussions failed, additionally there have been people within that organization that has made waves that they are against CI/AVT, oralism, etc. That does not workl, they need to be open to all communication modes just as they are, but they can choose not to promote a communication mode, just as they do.
If we say, we are ok with whatever communication modes you want to teach, but we just want the child to have an opportunity to bask themselves in two cultures, the hearing and deaf culture, which is why we beleive in bilingualism. Let’s ally ourselves with each other, you can teach the hearing culture, and we can teach the deaf culture. You have many deaf members that sign, therefore you are seeing proof that oralism and sign language can indeed co-exist within a deaf person.
Given the fact that you’ve said, United, we stand. Divided, we are colonized. My question to you is this, do you prefer that we stand, or that we remain colonized?
dog food said,
July 22, 2008 @ 9:23 am
Oh well, i guess its okay to be constantly bitter about things and keep a ready gun.
Dianrez said,
July 22, 2008 @ 9:48 am
Let’s not use Nazi analogies in our Deaf community. No one is plotting to exterminate us. Even exterminate ASL, since that has endured over 100 years despite oralism.
A better analogy is Big Business versus small business. The big business has newer stores, lower prices and a bigger variety of items. However, it does not sell one item that people want because it is not profitable enough.
This is where the small business succeeds because it has that one item, ASL, and people WANT IT. Moreover, that small business will get bigger as it learns how to package it so that it is attractive to more people and how to market it so it excites more people.
ASL is now being sold in many books, DVDs, toys, even in comic characters and roles on TV. This is the way to go–diversification, exposure, marketing and packaging. The Big Business can’t touch this one without breaking their own guidelines.
Stephen Hardy said,
July 22, 2008 @ 10:26 am
How to destroy your enemy? Become their friend. –Author unknown
silentredwolf said,
July 22, 2008 @ 11:42 am
I enjoy reading your vlogs and blogs. Do you know AGBell making money out of deaf oralist”s weathy family? Notice mostly oralist are coming from wealthy family? Notice? I do, I have three oral friends, some from St. Joesph and other from CID. They are wealthy, not by their job, family heritage, Deaf oralist dont have money, AGBell dont care about them, they end up either ASL world or nothing. Rich oralist, push push push push to keep up oral program and taking their money. What do you think? To me, mostly true. Agree with me? Ya’ll have a good day and keep up with your vlog and blog, don’t quit llike others already quit deafread and deaf Video.
dog food said,
July 22, 2008 @ 12:05 pm
silent red wolf;
nice shot at hearsay. I really do not think that you telling me about your “friends” say much of anything but the fact that you have something angst AGBell. If they did take money, it must’ve been donated or given in exchange for service? Can’t blame your deaf friend’s parents for doing what they thought was best for their kids.
I wish you and your friends can hear.
DrDonG said,
July 22, 2008 @ 12:23 pm
Dog Food –
There’s a saying: “There are none so blind as those who won’t see”….
dog food said,
July 22, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
Goes both ways, good Doctor. Isn’t it interesting that both you and I are so blind?
silentredwolf said,
July 22, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
I know I can’t blame my deaf friends but what if they are poor family and will AGBell do service for them? I don’t know. I use ASL all my life also can speak pretty good but will never felt good when am speaking to hearing people cuz I never show my expression when am talking. Am just worry about how to say the the correction sound and forget my expression. So I rather use signing which I can give my expression. I know donations is nice things when AGBell get. Who get royal treatment, Wealthy family’s deaf child or equal? I don’t get because AGBELL gave lots of attention to deaf child who parent have money. My family don’t have money and I get little service, which I am glad. I rather use ASL with rich Deaf culture. Anyway. I understand your point of view.
DrDonG said,
July 22, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
Ok, Dog Food, go enjoy your kibble.
SDA said,
July 22, 2008 @ 1:04 pm
Dianrez,
Where have you been?
Please educate yourself with some Deaf history.
Our history does show that there were and still are some measures to eradicate us, the Deaf. Look at genetic counseling, genetic engineering, cochlear implants, etc. So Don’s Nazi analogies are fitting.
E said,
July 22, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
Dr. DonG: I know that neither you nor your jowls would agree with me, but you have invoked Godwin’s Law:
“As a . . . discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”
This conversation is over.
dog food said,
July 22, 2008 @ 1:27 pm
Sure; I’m considering the Meat Soup from the ‘Chef at Large’ blog for lunch. The guy really knows his stuff.
I do hope that my point that i’m trying to give you today had came across to at least help you see why i think this post and way of thinking isn’t successful. You are literally playing the role of an old man ready to shoot anyone at his porch to defend your domain.
If i am blind, at least i’m the blind that leads the blind. I do not think that combating AGBell is ever going to be a successful motive.
Its certainly up to you if you want to shoot me; in the end, i’m just a commenter leaving notes on this blog you put so much effort into. Don’t let it all go in vain just because you cannot let go of history.
Eddie Runyon said,
July 22, 2008 @ 2:04 pm
Don:
I think Dog Food was trying to make an analogy between one side working themselves into a frenzy and not being able to show patience (the farmer) and someone coming to show “relief” (AG Bell), and the farmer (DBC in this case, or it’s supporters) shooting without waiting to see what the banker man had to say.
In other words, I think he was advocating taking a “wait and see” approach or working WITH AG Bell for what we DO have in common, which is the betterment of life for children, irregardless of the different approaches to it.
Now, I tend to try and stay out of the fracas between DBC and AG Bell for the explicit reason that both sides have some good points and both have some bad points. Either way, the focus needs to be on improving the lives of the deaf. There is never any one correct way or any one wrong way, due to the myriad differences between individuals.
Side note, Kentucky’s motto is “United We Stand, Divided We Fall”..
Valhallian said,
July 22, 2008 @ 2:21 pm
Don, I am not trying to challenge you here, but more of wanting to understand your viewpoint and it would help if you could answer the question I asked at the end of comment #20 after you have read the comment.
Cuz to be honest, your original message says United we stand, divided we are colonized, which gives me the impression that you would prefer to stand as united, but your vlogs and comments give me the impression that you prefer to remain divided and colonized.
I can totally understand it if you have a doctrate degree and if you do, my hat is certainly off to you. I pass along kudos for you and that certainly deserves respect. That in itself tells me that you are more than capable of carrying on a dialog where we are both learning from each other.
I’m not here to say that you are right or wrong, as you certainly are entitled to your opinions. I just merely wanted to understand your viewpoints a bit better because it confuses me with the text message that you put up at the beginning of every vlog, but at the end of the vlog I always get the impression that you prefer to remain colonized, hence my confusion and it would be appreciated if you could clear up the confusion at my end.
DrDonG said,
July 22, 2008 @ 3:00 pm
Valhallian,
I am saying that we need to be united as Deaf people, and to resist those forces which attempt to colonize us. I am not for remaining “colonized”. To be colonized would mean to support the audist perspectives on Deaf people; that we MUST speak, hear, and live as Hearing people in order to be “successful” in the world. My vlogs have consistently argued against that perspective.
Does this make more sense to you now?
Valhallian said,
July 22, 2008 @ 3:34 pm
Aye Don, it helps me to understand your view better, but not fully, as I get different definitions of Deaf and Audism altho I do have a general comprehension of their meaning.
Its just that I have had some people tell me that I am deaf, and not Deaf, altho I have known ASL and been involved with the deaf culture and community over the past 25 years. Additionally, some people have accused me of audism, simply because I am able to communicate with some hearing people without the use of auxilary aids.
The reality is that I have a significant preference of the deaf culture over the hearing culture, and there are other deaf people, including the late deafened that eventually have a preference of the deaf community, where do they all fit in your “model”?
Joseph Pietro Riolo said,
July 22, 2008 @ 3:41 pm
It seems that there are still few or some individuals who are so hell-bent on destroying the Alexander Graham Bell Association for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing. They need to get a life and try to channel their energies toward the positive, proactive actions.
I am not impressed with the quotations that you used in your vlog. We have seen the criticism on every pedagogical method. Some are old news, repeating what we already know or what were already discussed. Very few criticisms provide fresh perspective on the pedagogical methods. The quotation about speaking out is not applicable to us. We continue to criticize everything.
The complaints against the association are all or mostly explained away. For example, one common complaint is that the association forbids sign language. This is no longer true now. Also, some of the complaints are very abstract, vague or broad that it is meaningless to rebuke them.
Next time you have something against the association, explain it very clearly with enough details so that we can form our opinion in a rational way.
The last quotation in your vlog about remembering the past applies to both sides of the issues. Those who are against the technology of cochlear implant apparently do not remember the past. The history repeatedly shows that the technologies that people want will continue to march on. The technology of cochlear implant satisfies what the hearing (and even deaf) parents want for their deaf children. It continues to work for some or most deaf children. As long as it works, it will continue to march on. Those who are against the technology of cochlear implant need to look at the history to learn how they can co-exist with the technology. ASL has no new technologies to compete with the cochlear implant and this places ASL in great disadvantage. The association only goes with the flow of the technologies. So, until we have evidence that the association does something criminal or unethical, it is time to say to ourselves, “MYOB” (”Mind your own business”).
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
Elena said,
July 22, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
dog food, I have a hard time understanding people like you who dub us activists as bitter, gun-happy, and unable to “let go of history.” Does history exist for us to simply recognize it in a half-assed way and for us to remain in blissful ignorance limited to the present? I think life has to be a bit more meaningful than that, and people who strive to take action for the benefit of oppressed groups live out a life of servitude that’s much more honorable than being lazy and ignorant Americans who dub any person pushing for change as rabid militants. Honestly.
“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”
dog food said,
July 22, 2008 @ 4:33 pm
A question I’m pondering; what does it mean to you if someone like me who has decided to make use of technology and attends speech classes (never mind that i’m 26) simply because it’s my choice? Am I still part of this unity or am I damned in your eyes just because I yearn and chose to work towards improving hearing people’s access to my life?
Bob RRR said,
July 22, 2008 @ 4:39 pm
I say AGBell destroyed my life. I was not allowed to use ASL until about 12 years old. My brain was not used at all, only focusing on ears and mouth. Blah.. blah.. blah… what??? blah… blah… blah what??? I spent 12 fucking years of waste, learning so little. When I finally learned ASL, it opened my eyes and mind. It is kind of too late to pick up not as quick as when we were so young. Thanks to AGBell’s influence. How can these AG Bell advocate be so insensitive to these oral failures??????
DrDonG said,
July 22, 2008 @ 11:09 pm
Valhallian –
Open, honest questions, and I do appreciate them.
Just being able to speak and hear to some degree doesn’t make you an audist. But if you were to go around saying that you are “better” somehow because you can, or to say that Deaf people can’t have a successful life if they can’t speak or hear well, then that would make you audist. See the difference?
As for late-deafened people, or hard of hearing people, they all can fit in the model. LaRonda Zupp, for example, is a late-deafened person who has found her place within the Deaf community. On another blog, recently, there was a person who identified as late-deafened who prefers to associate with other late-deafened people. I made a case that this person would also fit within the model, although it would be a variant of the “classic” model in that this would be a “late-deafened Deafhood” model, since a key component of Deafhood is the recognition of similarity of experiences that all Deaf people have, and the tendency to socialize with those people who share those experiences. Deafhood allows for variance, since there really is no one “perfect” way to achieve Deafhood; it is a personal developmental process that may vary from person to person. Even I, born Deaf, will have a different personal understanding of what it means for me from a person who comes from a similar background. But there will likely be more similarities than differences between our models.
This brings me to:
Dog Food –
If the use of technology and desire for improvement of your speech skills are what you desire, that would be ok, since that would be part of your personal process, as long as you recognize our similarities and support the goals of the Deaf community and work with, not against us toward those goals.
DrDonG said,
July 22, 2008 @ 11:19 pm
Joseph P.R. –
AGB may not FORBID sign language any longer, but they certainly don’t ENCOURAGE parents to learn or use it. If you look at their website, there is a plethora of information on Cochlear Implants, AVT, implications of hearing loss, etc., etc. They do mention sign language, but don’t give any real information on it other than a token link to NAD. In addition, if you look carefully at their mention of ASL, you will see they have made a careful choice of words that relegates ASL to a lesser status than spoken or written English.
As for technologies, it is indisputable that AGB promotes those technologies that the parents want. But, it is the intention behind those technologies where the Deaf community and AGB clash. We are nearing the time when genetic technology will become commonplace. What if somebody develops a method for removing excess melanin so that a Black person could appear to be White? Would that be acceptable and accepted by the Black community? I would think not. So why is it deemed acceptable to utilize technology to remove a Deaf person’s “difference” in being Deaf? Just because most parents are Hearing? Should we then pursue technology to remove the homosexual preference from Gay/Lesbian people just because their parents are heterosexual?
Valhallian said,
July 23, 2008 @ 12:49 am
Don,
Just for the record, I may be able to speak and read lips with some hearing people, but I don’t hear at all. Both of my ears are severely profoundly deaf and I dont use hearing aids. Your definition of audism makes a lot of sense, I would never ever say that I am better just because I can speak and read lips. I pretty much try to treat everyone as an equal, yet I get labelled as an audist on occasions. Its fairly obvious that the definition differs among the deaf community, and perhaps that in itself does more harm than good.
When you think about it, a lot of oral, cued speech, etc people often enter the ASL aspect of deafness as they get older. Question is would these people enter that ASL stage at an earlier point of their lives, if their communication mode werent perceived as negative by those that use ASL?
I can understand where some people may bring up the word, just as Bob RRR just did here in his comment above, “oral failure”, but to me that is only half of the equation. The reason is because without intentionally trying to make any specific person look bad. Just let me play devil’s advocate for a moment here, one could flip the coin and say that there are also “ASL failures”, as well.
When I say that, I do not mean to say that they have failed in ASL in terms of communication, but in the educational aspect, which is quite unfortunate. This could be a potential factor in the reason that deaf people are often quite underpaid compared to their hearing counterparts. Many of them do not necessarily have good jobs and I have no desire to label the types of jobs that they have, as they do the best they can and I certainly respect that. Granted, there are those that do indeed have successful jobs, but let’s look at the overall picture here.
Perhaps, lack of communication could be a factor, but I do think that their educational background could be a bigger factor. The same does apply to hearing people as well. I was fortunate to have mastered the English language, largely due to the fact that I used to read a lot as a child because TVs did not have captions back then.
Is this to say that I am better than others? Absolutely not. You probably know as well as I do that you would not have a doctrate degree, if your English wasn’t good. Does that make you better than others? Nope. Its all in the circumstances that each of us, as an individual that was brought up in and we cannot blame these individuals for the upbringing that they had, which is why we cannot say that we are better than they are.
In order to have a better educational background, one needs to get a better understanding of the english language, which is a huge reason why I am a beleiver in bilingualism among deaf babies.
Now I am going to rely on my business experience here, as I have been in business for nearly 20 years now. I understand strategic planning, I understand marketing, etc.
I can understand where people are saying nasty things about AG Bell in the past. You just said that they do not forbid ASL, they just don’t promote it. They dont really say anything negative about ASL either. True, they have a preference to other communication modes.
Suppose DBC did the same thing here, and said they dont forbid CI/AVT, they just dont promote it. I’ve explained in my blogs, as well as comments on other blogs, how it would be much more beneficial in the long run to ally with AG Bell.
Look at it this way from a strategic point of view, I am not trying to convince you here, but merely request that you try to see this from the long term strategic plan I have in mind.
Picture this, suppose DBC has a booth inside the AG Bell conference, which quickly gives them the largest audience of hearing parents of deaf babies they’ll ever find in one place. The people at the booth are not combative or defensive with these parents by explaining the benefits of being bilingual and how baby signs can genuinely benefit them. Then say, “If you want to wean off of the baby signs when the child starts the CI/AVT program, thats ok too what counts is that you are starting the child’s language development at an earlier age.” These hearing parents will likely be quite impressed with that and take it more seriously.
I would suggest you research a bit more into the CI/AVT program, which I did myself and got a much better understanding of it. As a matter of fact, I used to be anti-CI myself, but I learned more about it from Rachel’s blog, among other CI blogs as I asked many questions. I learned some of it from my father as well, but to be honest, I didn’t really give it too much face value until I communicated with actual people from CI/AVT, which basically verified what he told me. I am no longer against it, but you would not see me promoting it either, I am just nuetral about it.
If you look into this, you will see that many of these CI/AVT children even enter public schools as young as kindergarten. These children will eventually realize their true deafnesses as they get older. I know I did when I was as young as the 4th grade and is why I stopped using a hearing aid at the 5th grade. Simply because I fully accepted my deafness. Now supposing the parent recognizes this, they will remember the kind words that were given out to them from the DBC booth years ago, and they see that the child is able to speak, they would more likely to agree to allow the child to use ASL again if he desires to be bicultural by being in both the deaf and hearing worlds, knowing the fact that it wouldnt hinder their speaking abilities.
I stopped using a hearing aid at the 5th grade and it hasnt hindered my speaking abilities as well, but these kids would be better off than I was cuz they could still rely on their aural skills, which I didn’t. Point here is that the hearing parent is going to be comfortable with this because of what they learned from the DBC booth inside the AG Bell conference.
Now let me ask you this, do you think that the parents that attended the AG Bell conference in Milwaukee recently with react the same way I just explained above years from now?
This is what I am referring to in the long run. Be positive, we may lose them for a few years or so while they are in the CI/AVT program, but we will get them back for a lifetime after that. That my friend, is why its very important to look at this as a long term strategy. Its a win win situation too, AG Bell gets what they want, and so do we.
Your thoughts?
MM said,
July 23, 2008 @ 2:00 am
Colonization will not destroy the ‘Deaf’ but an inability to bend with the wind and become more accepting will. Wales was colonized by England 600 years ago, Romans deliberately destroyed many aspects of the Celtic/welsh culture and slaughtered their people, but our language is still here, and so are we. We’re ‘bi-lingual’ too ! Deaf people in the UK use Welsh as an example of how to survive… and to push their own claim for culture and language. They don’t get an easy ride, because they wanted sign priority OVER Welsh, the deaf simply have no idea whatthey want or how they wanted to do it, they drive straight over things, or just hit a brick wall, too many just enjoy the fight…. Why do they want access to A G Bell and not just concentrating on access everywhere else ?
DrDonG said,
July 23, 2008 @ 6:20 am
Valhallian –
Wow! Long response! Will try to address your points….
Yes, I would agree that some Deaf have overused or overgeneralized the concept of audism and used it as an insult to those who they shouldn’t be. The concept needs to be understood better, but it is still new for some, and some may take their fuzzy understanding and apply it as they think fit. Hopefully as more understanding of the term spreads, we won’t see these instances of incorrect usage.
A good question about when the late-deafened might come to enter the ASL stage… My suspicion is that a lot of the resistance comes from misunderstandings about ASL and what it means to use ASL. ASL is still not seen as a true language equal to Spanish, French, Swahili, etc., and that misperception is fostered by people (doctors, audiologists, speech therapists, educators of the Deaf, AGB, etc.) who promote a Hearing/speech-oriented agenda. This is one thing the DBC is trying to address — to bring ASL to an equal status with any other spoken language of the world and to help people recognize that it may be useful to their own lives. I do admit that some Deaf aren’t exactly supportive at times of ASL learners — I’ve been guilty of that myself, and this is something that we as a community need to change so that people don’t get turned off of ASL and the Deaf community.
As for “ASL failures”, you, like many other people, are blaming ASL for the failure of many Deaf people to acquire good English skills. The problem lies not in ASL itself, but in how Deaf people are educated. Many Deaf enter school with minimal to no language skills because their parents chose to start through the oral route, and when that did not succeed, they experienced a resultant cognitive and linguistic delay that is nearly impossible to overcome. Think about most Hearing people — By age two, they have acquired or been exposed to thousands of words, and have begun developing a mental map (schema) of the world — concepts, ideas, relationships — that a Deaf person without full access to language cannot develop. In addition, most schools for the Deaf have not been set up to properly utilize a bilingual education model — most still operate from Hearing-centric philosophies and methods which do not take advantage of the skills and abilities that Deaf people DO have. So this is where the “ASL failures” that you are describing comes from. Just as a point of comparison — look at the written English of many Hearing second-language learners of English. See the similarities in the patterns of these Hearing English second-language learners and Deaf people’s written English?
Actually, I think DBC isn’t forbidding CI — in its mission statement, as I recall, it is for access and exposure to ASL for ALL babies, regardless of hearing status. So, having a CI doesn’t go against DBC’s stated mission. However, AVT, by its very nature, is mutually exclusive of ASL, because it stresses ONLY hearing and speaking, WITHOUT any visual cues, including sign language.
As for DBC allying with AG Bell, I suppose in theory, it could happen, but I don’t think it would, because AGBell is, as we have agreed, not supportive of ASL. Did you see a Deaf Services group from Wisc. on the DBC website that said they had a booth in the AGB convention, included representatives of all perspectives — Oral, CI, SEE, and ASL, and their booth was shunted off to a far recess of the exhibit hall which was easily overlooked by convention-goers because of how the booths were set up? This is indicative of AGB’s mindset — they structure things to THEIR advantage and perspective, instead of providing a balanced, level presentation of the information out there.
As for “weaning off” of sign language for Deaf babies, I would not support that, and I don’t think DBC does either. DBC has not said anything against allowing Deaf people to learn speech if they can, but our perspective is that for Deaf people, sign language is the one method that allows FULL access to communication and social interaction. The philosophy of “weaning off” of sign language just continues to promote the idea that ASL is of lesser status than English.
I do get your point, though, that we have to provide a positive message to the parents. I think DBC IS trying to do that, but I guess they’re going to have to tinker with it until they get it right. They’re less than one year old. They’ve only barely started. AGB has had over 120 years to get their message “right” (for their purposes). Let’s support the DBC in their efforts to “get it right”.
By the way, I never realized your father had a Deaf son. Is that how he got into the field of Deaf ed, or was it just a coincidence?
dog food said,
July 23, 2008 @ 8:19 am
Thanks for your thoughts; i can see better now where you’re coming from.
Someone asked why I think some are bitter about this topic; well the fact is, some are bitter. I guess i can accept this because the fact that there are those who are emotive about their oral upbringing.
I have a disappointment that there’s this AGBell bashing going on that really isn’t solving anything. I have yet to see anyone trying to make a move to educate doctors about sign language. Who’s going around communicating to all hospitals that have a maternity ward? Who’s making brochures, websites, and writing letters to hearing aid centers, expectant mothers classes (breathing classes, yoga), and the like?
Instead, there’s AGBell bashing; constant reminding of things that happened in history. Yes, there is value in history; I like to acknowledge though, that there is more value in making history.
Valhallian said,
July 23, 2008 @ 9:38 am
Don, I’ll start of my response by answering your last question. Yes, that is how my father got into to field of Deaf ed, as a result of my deafness. I was actually born in Minnesota and this is why my family relocated to St. Louis when I was two years old.
However, it was not the school alone that gave me my speaking and lip reading skills, a lot of credit goes to my parents as they dedicated themselves to ensure that I learned it at the home too. Having dedicated parents is a vital role in the upbringing of any child, whether its ASL or oral.
That being the case, this could also be another reason for the failures that I mentioned earlier, parental involvement. There are those parents that have “dumped” there kids in deaf schools, whether its oral or ASL, expecting the school to take care of it themselves without being personally involved with the development of the childs language.
Those successes that we see on both communication modes, are almost always as a result of parental involvement. I would imagine that it is significantly more work on the oral side when it comes to parental involvement. Which is a point that these parents need to be made aware of, if they cannot dedicate themselves to a tactic enough to do so from the home in itself, then they should not do it.
I was kind of taken aback when you used Swahili as an example when you said that ASL is not seen as a true language. I thought ASL was recognized as a language in many states and now many high schools across the country are offering it as a foreign language. That isn’t the case with Swahili. Granted, ASL was not recognized as a language by states back then, but progress has indeed been made and progress is continuing. It just takes time.
Your points on the educational aspect are genuine points. When I said “weaning off”, I was referring to the parents that choose the AVT model. To be honest, I was offended at first, but the fact that it did not use ASL so I communicated with more people in that field, teachers, parents, and yes even students themselves to learn more about it before having an official position about it. I wanted facts and information before I had set my opinions in stone.
AVT means just that, Auditory Verbal Training, it is nothing like the oral training that I had as a child (which I wasn’t too keen on as a child, but now appreciate it). The teachers can actually stand behind the students, which was not possible during my day. It is 100% auditory training. I still remember a statement a commenter made to me last year, its just like where a grandfather places a child on his knee and talks to him and the child learns from him. Same thing with AVT, there are no visual tools used whatsoever. So if you were to try to add ASL to this, it would no longer be called AVT. Now don’t kill the messenger here
but that was what I learned and I am nuetral with that, just as I am nuetral with CIs.
I dont think AVT has been around long enough to really determine its success or failure rates, as the first generation of students in AVT are now just entering their college years. The real test is when they graduate and enter the real world.
It appears that AVT is showing enough success because I do see more more and more AVT programs popping up across the country. I would imagine that the reason for more programs is so that the students remain as day students and not in dormitories, hence allowing more parental involvement which plays a vital role in the success of an AVT student.
I do realize that many deaf people do not like this, but that is what these hearing parents of deaf children are liking, and this is what DBC has to compete with in terms of reaching out to hearing parents of deaf children.
Unfortunately, I do think that DBC has pretty much ruined its reputation with AG Bell and it will be extremely hard to overcome that. I am not trying to bash them here, I am looking at hard facts. It is probably easier to start a new organization when it comes to approaching AG Bell.
And yes, I did see that a deaf services group had a bad location at the Milwaukee conference, but I have not gotten the whole story here. But if you look at this strictly from a business perspective, some organizations do charge more for the prime spots, hence, sponsorship. Top sponsors get the prime spots. Secondly, they look at repeat vendors, vendors that come back over and over. They would get a better spot so that they can keep coming back. That leaves out the worst spots for first timers or groups they feel would not attend the next convention. I do feel it was more of this situation than anything else when it came to that deaf services group, based on my business experience.
Now suppose DBC took that 35-40 thousand that has been said on blogs was used for the DBC event in Milwaukee, and instead, used it for top sponsorship, they would be among the best spots in the conference. I think that would have been a significantly better strategy.
Lastly, Don, I do support bilingualism for deaf babies wholeheartedly, but I don’t know if I can support DBC itself in their efforts to get it right, simply because they have ruined their reputation with AG Bell and it will be extremely difficult to overcome that. I only say AG Bell for one reason and one reason only, they have the best access to hearing parents of deaf babies and there is no way around that for the time being and likely it will be that way for years to come. However, I will support a group that takes the right approach, and that is allying themselves with AG Bell, again for one reason and one reason only, the actual access to hearing parents of deaf children.
I do beleive we can get AG Bell to change their thinking too, if we can create a win-win situation. I actually think it would be more beneficial if a new such organization does not grow to be too big, simply for the reason being that its easier to ensure that the message stays the same throughout the organization. For example, you say that DBC is not against cochlear implants, but there was Jack Barr, a highly touted DBC activist, with a vlog or two that was totally against CIs. That sends a conflicting message doesnt it?
DrDonG said,
July 23, 2008 @ 11:27 pm
Eric/Val. –
I see you made many of these same points on your own blog, but since you posted them here first I will respond here.
You’re definitely right. Parental involvement has been one factor that almost consistently shows up in the eventual success of the child, although that effect still does not predict oral success to a strong degree. In my opinion, using ASL reduces the need for intensity of involvement on the part of the parents, although I don’t have any statistics to back me up on that, just my gut feeling.
I do want to make it clear that just because a parent sends a child to a school for the Deaf doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily “dumping” the child, but it can be that they recognize that that would be the best environment for their child, linguistically and socially, but are still concerned about their child’s welfare and do what they can for their child when the child is with them. But I do agree with you that there is a certain element that does “dump” the child and expects the school to do all the educating. But that goes for parents of Hearing children as well — there are certain parents who think it is the school’s job to do all the teaching. And this is why we are seeing the schools in trouble nowadays.
I think you’re confusing linguistic status of the World’s languages with what is commonly taught as a second language. Swahili is definitely a language, although yes, it is not usually taught in schools or colleges as a second language. ASL is becoming more and more recognized as a language, and more places are teaching it as a “Foreign Language”, but even if it was not taught as a “F.L.”, this would not detract from its status as a language in its own right.
As for your points re: DBC, AGB, and AVT, I am not so sure that it would work the way you describe. It is probably something for DBC to decide for itself in the direction they want to go. Knowing AGB from my perspective, I have my serious doubts whether AGB would support the Deaf perspective on ASL and bilingualism. But if I can be proved wrong, then that would be a good thing for future Deaf children.
Thanks for giving us something to think about. I do respect your thoughts, and this is what we all need to do — have a mutually respectful dialogue about the issues.
–Don G.