Why don’t Deaf shun those who hurt our own?
This really isn’t about Barry Sewell — I’ve been thinking about this issue for a couple of years now. But I thought this would be a good time to bring it up here. Many cultural groups will practice some form of excluding people who break the cultural group’s rules (norms) in a major way. I’ve never seen it happen in the Deaf community. I explore some ideas of why I think it is this way.
Mishkazena said,
July 17, 2008 @ 7:30 pm
Don,
You brought a good point. I’ve been pondering this for a long time. Ever since a Deaf guy raped a young Deaf teenager at gunpoint and was jailed for this felony.
After he was released from prison, he was welcome back to the Deaf Community. I was stunned to hear that. He destroyed the life of an innocent Deaf girl.
Maybe it is because Deaf Community is like an extended family. I honestly don’t know either.
By the way, I do enjoy your discourses. It gave me a lot of thoughts to ponder. Thanks
tom said,
July 17, 2008 @ 8:03 pm
Really Deaf world is small .. We are one of the most forgiving poeple . We come from people of all walk ..There is something inside of us that we cherish each other . Even my worst enemy is my best friend .. Maybe is our culture and instinst keep us together … A Strong DEAF bond …
Deb Ann said,
July 17, 2008 @ 8:05 pm
How interesting! I never thought about such a thing like that! It’s a great question…it gives me a lot of thoughts ,and thanks for sharing this discourse!
By the way, thank you for your support on my blog
DrDonG said,
July 17, 2008 @ 8:07 pm
Mishka –
Another good example! Other groups shun as a way of letting the members know that that kind of behavior is not acceptable. If we were to do that, maybe more people would understand it’s not OK to hurt ourselves.
Tom —
Don’t you think our Deaf bond would be even stronger if we knew that we would be safe from each other and that if someone were to hurt us, we would protect them by punishing the person responsible?
DJH said,
July 17, 2008 @ 8:10 pm
I have been thinking about this for several years…thanks for bringing this up…The Amish do that…their community is small yet they do that…
Sage said,
July 17, 2008 @ 8:18 pm
Im bit disappointed to have you viewing like this. Isn’t Deaf Culture at all, sorry to say, we aren’t like those religion followers who made their choice to open eyes to their own truth. I have no problem with those people, but our people. I know (name), he’s really great guy, he caught trouble cuz he’s so business driven that could harm others like vast businessmen hurt people’s investments. Also, ur still having grudge against Barry Sewell over his reckless reveal the insider conversation that spread conflicts among Deaf Read vloggers/bloggers. My Deaf friends, family, etc not even know about any of those issues at all! They just don’t keep up with DeafRead.com nor Deaf.TV
World is moving on as usual! I find your Vlogging downward, time to think out of box and bring something on DeafRead.com.
deafchipmunk said,
July 17, 2008 @ 8:37 pm
Hi Don,
Your argument is very interesting. I have never thought about that but you are right. We tend to forgive people even they did terrible things to us. Tonight, I am going to bed and sleep on it.
Deafchip
Yet Another Refugee said,
July 17, 2008 @ 8:41 pm
I agree. I’ve seen too much forgive. Because we are so small, we forgive a lot. And that is fine. But when someone lie to many of us and not honest about money, people still forgive, forgive, forgive. I see people go to fancy, expensive event when the organization did so much awful and still not honest. And now when someone threaten other people’s job, many say “it is ok. He tells truth. He just a whistleblower.” NO IT IS NOT OK!!!! Enough! We must say no, not forgive. Make people think twice.
nacpac said,
July 17, 2008 @ 10:24 pm
Hmmmmm…..
Tom, I do not think we are the most forgiving people. We have high tolerance for dissent in behavior and thought. BUT we do talk behind people’ backs and we never forget. We put on a smile on our faces and give hugs to the same people we expressed disgust about. That’s what I hate about the Deaf (Im culturally Deaf and a native user of ASL, I may be at liberty to talk nasty about ourselves, ha).
The Deaf world is too small. If you scorn a Deaf person for doing something that may harm the reputation of the community or committed a heinous crime (as in Mishka’s example), vyou will see that person again and again and again. The person would come to haunt you. It is best to just smile and move on. But we don’t forget.
In the hearing would, you could easily tell that person to @#$! off and never see that person again. How I wish I were hearing sometimes!
Don, I do not think it is wise to practice excommunication within the Deaf community as we have different opinions as to what is acceptable and not acceptable. The community is so diverse, unlike the golden olden days. Would we want another firestorm?
David Ennis said,
July 17, 2008 @ 10:35 pm
That’s good question. I believe that the Amish norm and Deaf norm are pretty different because Amish children and parents are same hearings and speaking in their same language (Old German Language). Comparing to the Deaf group, there are about 90 percent Deaf children have their hearing parents and also most Deaf children’s native language is so different from their parent’s language. Most Deaf children of their hearing parents grew up alone in their hearing family until they became adults, their feelings used to be outcasts among their hearing families who did not interest in learning ASL to communicate with their Deaf children. In fact, majority of the Deaf World members are already outcasts since their childhood. If a Deaf person who committed a serious crime to the Deaf community, then Deaf criminal should be deserved the second outcast? That’s my own observation but it can be not enough valid on your question.
DrDonG said,
July 17, 2008 @ 11:08 pm
NACPAC,
You’re right, we do talk about them behind their backs. I remember going to a Dingo night a little while after the news broke about one of those guys and sitting with some older Deaf, and when they saw that guy come in, one of them said something like “he has his nerve showing his face here” and others indicated their agreement, but other than that, it was “business as normal”. That’s what got me started thinking about this question.
We have different opinions as to what is acceptable and not acceptable… OK, I know what you’re saying, but our culture does have certain rules about what is NOT acceptable, period, and we all cherish our Deaf bond, so seems to me that inflicting any kind of harm (except the verbal kind, it seems…) on others of our kind should be seen as over the limit for acceptability.
Going off on a tangent a bit, it just occurred to me that perhaps our reaction to the ASL/CI people is that they broke that cultural norm in a major way?
Sage, — personally, I like the guy you named, and he has never done anything wrong to me, and I have done the same thing with him because of that — he never did anything to me and I didn’t see him do what he was accused of doing, so I couldn’t say that he was truly guilty or not, but at the same time I know his personality and I could see him being involved…
It is a complicated question. Yes, our community is small. That has its advantages and its disadvantages in terms of things like this. But seems to me that because it is so small, we should be wanting to make sure that we all work together FOR each other…. know what I’m saying?
nacpac said,
July 17, 2008 @ 11:19 pm
DonG: “it just occurred to me that perhaps our reaction to the ASL/CI people is that they broke that cultural norm in a major way?”
That’s VERY possible. Yes.
Now I’m being excommunicated.
MM said,
July 18, 2008 @ 1:30 am
Currently, ‘deafhood’ is the cause of a much dissent. It would be better if those that want to go ‘in-depth’ on this as an academic thing, got their own section at deaf.read (Under ‘educational ?), so the more active of those with deafhood do NOT Use the mainstream of deaf.read to beat others over the head with.
It IS a mooted academic subject, but there’s very little ‘academic’ discourse coming out ! We could always zero deafhood output by using the block option, I would rather respect those who want to discuss it, to discuss it among themselves and to UNDERSTAND it first, without trying their their own ‘angle’ on us, as to what they THINK it means, and then using it to press home what divides us without ever offering a bridge.
It looks like preaching, and nobody likes that.
DrDonG said,
July 18, 2008 @ 2:54 am
MM –
Huh? Not sure exactly how your comment fits with this….
Yes, I was discussing a facet of our Deaf community as an academic thing, and yes, in part, it is exploring our Deafhood, but preaching? How so? Beating you over the head? If you don’t want to read/see it, you don’t HAVE to click on my site. And, I think this discussion right here could lead to an ‘academic’ discourse. But I guess it’s all “academic” to you.
I find it a bit ironic, though… recently there was some hot discussion within DeafRead about blocking out “deafness” perspectives, and now a person with a “deafness” perspective is suggesting that DeafRead should block out the “Deafhood” perspective… hmmm?
MM said,
July 18, 2008 @ 3:11 am
Not so. Deafhood is an academic subject by your own definition so discuss it with academics, you still are researching it yourself, you are giving out own perceptions of it, when you know what you are talking about, then people are more inclined to listen to what you say, so far, it’s ‘Deafhood’ aka ‘Deaf’ against everyone and everything else. That’s the problem. I don’t WANT to block you out, I am surprised you would want me too. That just panders to the isolationists who run deafhood propaganda at present,nothing would suit them more, than to be big fish in small ponds again. You use deafhood to attack people, and to justify that attack. If we resist say we attack deaf people. Most of us saw through that at day one.
DrDonG said,
July 18, 2008 @ 3:37 am
MM,
I’m not saying I want you to block me out. But you definitely did seem to be saying we should move over to some other section of DeafRead.
Sure, I’m presenting my own perception of Deafhood. I’m letting other people (like you) present your own perceptions. As Joseph Santini said, that is part of the process, and what I’m trying to do here.
As for me using Deafhood to attack people… I admit I’m straightforward with what I think. If I think you’re wrong, I’m going to let you know it, especially when it impacts on me and my way of life. But except for Barry Sewell, I haven’t been attacking… ok, yes, I was pissed during the “Beware of False Prophets” post after all the attacks your friends made on me, and I went after the worst offenders (by the way, Dan, you are PNG with me, and I’m going to delete you every time until you learn how to develop a civil mode of expression, and even then, we’ll see how I feel…)
MM said,
July 18, 2008 @ 3:52 am
Unfortunately it is ‘perceptions’ of deafhood that are causing problems. I think having an set aside area where you can discuss these ideas about it with other like-minded is the way to go, certainly less likely to clash head on with those who don’t want to know. I think there is ‘time out’ needed on deafhood and perhaps less contentious aspects put forward too. As each ‘journey’ is individual then it will be hard for others to relate to it anyway. It works for you, you must accept it will not for most… if you keep putting the view so strongly as a ‘challenge’ then preaching is what it will look like. It can be discussed THIS way like we are doing now, bit NOT via the other way that invites conflict.
Karen Mayes said,
July 18, 2008 @ 4:31 am
Hmmm… I never saw you using “Deafhood” to “attack” anyone, but I do notice that you are passionate about it, making it your lifestyle. I don’t, and like Teri from California, I keep it simple and I don’t talk about it except on DeafRead.
So when you said “your friends” to MM, you are isolating us because of “attacks”. Doesn’t it complicate your theory of Deafhood? I am not going to speak up for “friends” (no I won’t speak up for my husband…it is his words and his feelings alone, I don’t own him), but I do sense many conflicting messages from you. Sometimes when one explains one subject over and over, it seems to me that that person does not really understand it… just my perspective. If any of us strikes you as not understanding, let it be, because we all have our own journeys.
Yes, I strongly objected to your postings about Barry Sewell… whatever he has done deserves his purpose, what purpose, I don’t know right now. But you did feed fuel to the fire… you are no better nor worse than any of us, deafhood or not. We all experience negative emotions, as well as positive emotions.
Aidan brought up an interesting point… that DeafRead was a Deafhood journey for all of us. Even for Barry and Dan, I am sorry to say.
At the end we just forgive… because dwelling is a waste of time and energy and we all know that we need to move on, hopefully having learned sometime from any experiences.
EricJindra said,
July 18, 2008 @ 4:50 am
MM,
It looks like you want to keep crab theory pulling deaf community down… It is best if we speak freely and whatever that person says, either it would gain him or decrease him. Remember whatever that person say and he is driving on his own direction and you cannot steers for him.
Do you remember I wrote blog under “Ella’s coward” about reproving her life between Christian and Lesbian? I wrote it because I have enough supporting information to reprove her life. Evenly many people don’t like what I wrote. But I believe in Bible and Bible teaches me that if I see someone practices Christian and practice immorality without repenting and Christians are required to reprove that person. Suppose I didn’t reprove that person therefore something is wrong with me for being double standard with Bible’s teaching. Bible teaches that practice is very serious business.
I am strong advocating for freedom of speech expect for person saying something about person without strong facts/evidences/supporting information/etc. Remember our country was established on freedom of speech which that led us to most advanced country because no one would pulls our idea down. Whatever DrDonG. said and he could sounds great or horrible. But I cherish his says because it could led to revolution of idea in our life or something. Be creative, open, don’t limits yourself, and don’t always agree with everyone.
——————–
DrDonG,
DrDonG, hahaha don’t bring Gallaudet’s language in deafread with “PNG” thing, hahaha. I think it’s funny but good one anyway.
I already knew that problem always exists in our community. We need to stand firm for our ground stands since that many of us are weak at that area. Whatever we decides to not dwells with that person then so be it. Don’t change your mind over time because that person will tame on your weakest area. Make sure your ground stands are very armed and ready to bark against those people who tries to mess with you.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with whole your heart and do not lean your own understanding.
John 6:9 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Amen!
Anonymous said,
July 18, 2008 @ 6:26 am
We had a situation that happened in our local Deaf/deaf community. I came away wondering why Deaf/deaf people allow bad behavior and consider it acceptable? I realize the Deaf/deaf community is small but why do they allow bad behavior to flourish. The worse part is it was not the guy’s first time but it was the gal’s first time. Not to get into details but his past was covered up and big time excuses made for him while placing all the blame on her. Why? He is Deaf and she is hearing. This whole situation divided our local Deaf/deaf community which wasn’t needed. Over a year later it still persist because he won’t let it go. He still pursues her and changes stories. Many times the truth is not revealed because she won’t talk about it. It was shocking to hear that many knew of his past behaviors yet blamed her and not him. Isn’t the third or fourth time telling that he obviously needs help and the fault is his when all the situations are the same? Isn’t he expected to grow up?
Have people ever thought that shunning gives consequences to bad behavior while acceptance does not? We need to make and hold Deaf/deaf people accountable to their actions instead of letting them shift the blame on someone else using the old Deaf/deaf excuse. It is actions like this that has the hearing folks look on saying ‘what’s wrong with the Deaf/deaf?’
Brian L. Mayes said,
July 18, 2008 @ 7:47 am
DonG –
Interesting post. I’m sorry, I may sound like your enemy, but I have a different view-point, ok? BTW, I’m not your enemy. Cool?
I think we do shun people, they may come and say hi, but it never goes farther than that if that person doesn’t like the other. Also, we are hot-beds for rumors, it is another way for us to shun people.
Me, I believe deaf people are very judgmental people, just like you with Dan. Just because he says something bad makes him 100% bad person? That is what I think is the problem with everything in DeafRead and else where, us deaf are not willing to sit down and teach morals and ethics. They just shun them and think they should know better… Is that really so? Maybe they honestly don’t know better.
Just my 2 cents.
deafchipmunk said,
July 18, 2008 @ 9:37 am
Hi Don,
This morning I woke up and I think I get your point better than last night.
Rejecting and accepting are the ones we all have learnt during our life time.
Your point just hit me like an anvil.
The current society that tends to reject people who are not fit with it.
We, the Deaf community, tolerate many people no matter who they are within reasonable approach… not accepting any dangerous people such as serial killers. In my view, our Deaf community is the most diversity than any other communities based on their family backgrounds, religion backgrounds, language backgrounds, mainstream backgrounds, Deaf institution backgrounds, oralism background and a million more backgrounds that come to one place, Deaf community.
It is sad that people who know nothing about Deaf have attacked us because they are afraid of something that are not known to them. Perhaps I disgress.
Deafchip
DrDonG said,
July 18, 2008 @ 9:43 am
Karen,
Thank you for not seeing me as trying to “attack” anyone. Yes, I am passionate about it, I think it’s a good thing for us as Deaf people, and I am trying to educate about what it means so more people can understand. If I come across as “heavy-handed” or “preaching”, I apologize — but I am a very blunt, straightforward person. Like I said in my post on Barry, I would not make a good politician.
When I said “your friends” to MM, yes, I was setting him and a few of you apart because of the attacks on me coming from a specific group of people (I did see that Candy blog, remember?). Yes, we’re human, and yes, we do have emotions, good and bad. (That should prove Deafhood is not a cult — if it was, then I would be smiling like a Moonie all the time, right?). But, no, it doesn’t really complicate my theory of Deafhood because at the same time I do understand how societal forces have worked to set people in such direct opposition to a Deaf-centered view of life.
I do appreciate the comments. I’ll think on them a bit more.
DrDonG said,
July 18, 2008 @ 9:55 am
Eric J —
Yeah, that IS Gallaudet language. Guess I shouldn’t have used it for the non-Gallaudetians out there…. but I’m sure they got what I meant, anyway….
Anonymous — Yes, that’s what I’m thinking. Shunning would send a strong message that certain things are just NOT acceptable.
Brian–
Ok, I’ll accept your word that you’re not my enemy. Just cool it with the “criticizing” talk, ok? Try to step back for a few minutes and just try to see what I’m trying to say first?
Yes, Deaf people can be judgemental. Hearing can be too. With Dan, it is definitely a personal thing, because of the things he said to me. I deleted one post that was truly awful. If you’d seen it, I think you would have been appalled, or maybe not, since a lot of emotions were running high at that time.
I’m trying to make my point with him about morals and ethics, but he just doesn’t seem to be getting it… He says he’s pretty close to my age, and I would think someone in at least their 30s should know something about how to appropriately talk to people. Do I think he is 100% bad? No, probably not. But he totally lost any credibility with me through his actions, which he has been continuing, and therefore like I said, I am not going to accept anything from him here until he can show me he’s grown up a bit, like maybe offering a sincere apology, would be a good start. People DO do that….
Karen Mayes said,
July 18, 2008 @ 10:14 am
Hmmm… I speak from my heart and any time I speak usually comes from my heart and I feel strongly. You even speak from your heart, as I already noticed. You and I already know that you and I don’t always agree with each other. Sure I feel you dont get it sometimes (part of disagreement) and I felt disturbed that you were on the warpath against Barry (calling him evil, etc., whateva.) Whatever happened is over and we are just moving on. I am not going to make any apologies because I can’t apologize for how I think. If apologizing, I will have to change myself (as part of repentance, blah blah.) In my 40+ years, I have learned a lot… but one thing I know… attitudes change but personalities never change. I am not trying to imply anything, but from my observations and experiences… it seems to me that way, people do change… only attitudes change.
Okay have a good day…
MM said,
July 18, 2008 @ 11:30 am
EricJindra… Nobody is pulling deaf people down, I don’t think anyone reading the ‘deafhood discourses’ or those that ascribe to them and add to them via personal view, are all innocents, just trying to discover who they are and where they fit in. There is no ‘turning the other cheek’ is here ? No mutual acceptance to disagree on fundamentals..
Deafhood via deaf.read is NOT a ‘deaf’ or even an ‘Deaf’ thing, it is just a few views on a book not many appear to have even read, nor perhaps taken the trouble so to do. People here by and large are not, ’sharing their journey’, they are trying to say we all should be on one or else we are not part of the deaf community, to disagree is to put deaf people down, this is wrong.
DonG is not entirely innocent with due respect. He has used the deafhood discourses to ‘retaliate’ at people, deafhood is his ’shield’, there has been less than ‘respect’ shown to some ! thus deafhood is associated with extremism in part, endless discourse, preaching…since the book (And I have it at hand here), says nothing whatever about that.
So this is disruption not much else. In my responses to Don I have not attacked HIM at all, I do disagree with his stance and views on deafhood, I have that right, and it is not expressed in a nasty way, I think at least.
Pick a page, pick a chapter, discuss what you think it may or may not mean to YOU, but don’t add ‘deaf people’ at the end, since DonG hasn’t the right, nor anyone else. it is His perceptions and His ‘journey’, it is nor ‘crab theory’ to ask they respect we don’t all want this, and certainly not, used, abused, and in tandem with issues like the DBC or Gallaudet or some other blogger he has had skirmishes with over time.
Mr Ladd’s opus ? I can only assume DonG hasn’t actually read it. Certainly there seems doubt he has understood it.
I think perhaps if the deafhood devotees got together and sorted out what bugs them, at deaf.read but apart from the ‘cut and thrust’ of other contentions, then his pursuit of deafhood would progress without the added diversions of heated argument that debilitates us all.
Then there will perhaps be less aggrevations, give peace a chance.
DrDonG said,
July 18, 2008 @ 12:16 pm
Karen,
Wasn’t asking you to apologize. You handled yourself pretty well, comparatively. But Dan was WAY out of line. Yes, I’m sure you feel I don’t “get it”, and sometimes I feel you don’t “get it”. I’m trying to show you where I am coming from, hoping to see if I can make it clearer or find the “magic bullet” that will make you “get it”, and I think you’re doing the same. I recall you saying once somewhere that I “twist people’s words”. Yes, I have taken people’s words, but I try to use them to show how they can be interpreted from a different angle. That is rhetoric. Again, that’s all fine, and that’s part of the process.
MM — I have not tried to retaliate against people, except for Barry, who I feel is someone who truly does not have our community’s best interests at heart. You like him, that’s your prerogative and I know I’m not going to change your mind on that. I am speaking to the community as a whole that I, and others do believe he is not good for us as a whole, and I want us all to be aware of that and not let him cause problems among us again. If you want to take my warning, fine. If not, fine. And by the way, I’ve read the whole book, and gone over it again in parts. (And taken a class hosted by DE, which reviewed much of what I had already gleaned from the book and gave me a few new insights).
One goal I did have for this site was to provide a place to discuss the book as well, but I haven’t gotten around to that point yet…. But even so, much of my thinking, thoughts, ideas, have been inspired by the book, so in a way, we still are discussing it. Even as you reject Deafhood, you’re still in the discussion….
Trying Hard to Understand said,
July 18, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
Hi all!
To MM… You say:
“…since the book (And I have it at hand here), says nothing whatever about that.”
I am unsure what that word “that” refers to. I’d like to check the book and see what it has to say about “that”, but do not understand quite what thing you were referring to.
Would you elaborate, please?
Thank you, and thank you DrDonG for this safe place to explore the land along our Deafhood journeys!!
DrDonG said,
July 18, 2008 @ 3:33 pm
MM –
I thought a little more about what you were saying about my “attacks” — Yes, I was attacking certain people, but Deafhood was not my “shield” for those — simple courtesy and decency were. Paotie consistently sneers and denigrates anyone who expresses ideas different from their own, I’ve already said what Dan was like, and whoever else I did name, it was for similar reasons. Deafhood really had nothing to do with it, except maybe for my belief that we have to stop saying that that kind of thing is “just Deaf culture” or “we should just ’sweep it under the rug’ in the interests of group harmony” when harmony won’t be achieved when we allow people to attack us for what we think. I have no problem with dissent. It is HOW that dissent is expressed that I have a problem with.
MM said,
July 19, 2008 @ 1:33 am
Don, you still haven’t got it ! I attained ‘deafhood’ years ago…….. by being deaf. I have been debating the issue of ‘deafhood’ online since day one, and before Paddy Ladd wrote his book…. you did too, it is what we are all doing. If it is about ID, I had this at day one, if it is about community, I don’t think that exists now, if it is about culture, mine was set at birth, if it is about history, then although I have 4 generations recorded as deaf, aif it is about language, that too.
I stated on a previous blog, I have had at least 4 generations of deaf people via my family background, none were part of what you see as this community, nor its culture nor its language, we survived just the same. Sometimes to see the obvious look nearer to where you already are, you won’t find it in a book, you are writing your own ‘deafhood’ now….. or else you will be trying to attain someone ellse’s version of what you are supposed to be…
Take it from me, you cannot be other, than what you are…..
Paulette said,
July 19, 2008 @ 6:38 am
I believe that the Deaf community does reject other deaf people who murder other deaf people. It happened to my community years ago. The guy by the name of Ron Bradley who was Deaf (I said “was” cuz he is now dead) he killed his ex girlfriend and her mother. He was sent to prision after he was found guilty for double murder. Eventually while in prsion, he asked for a pen pal. No one wanted anything to do with him because we were upset that he dared to kill another Deaf community member who was well liked and a natural leader within our community. We also made sure he was not welcome back to the community if he was ever pardoned. Sad but true, we were relieved that he was deceased.
Bill Maghan said,
August 17, 2008 @ 12:27 am
Part it’s because things that happened in another time are not as real as right now. Now is the time that is most important.