The new blog aggregator, Deaf Village is the featured topic in this vlog. It is captioned in English for people who are not fluent in ASL (American Sign Language). In hope for a compromise, I decided to propose a solution to this situation. It has been on my mind for the last few days. Basically, it may be the only true way of promoting inclusivity of all people from all walks of life.
It is just a compromise that shows promise of building a bridge between the native ASL signers and English speakers. In the end, it is up to the Deaf Village team to talk it over and reach a decision.
For the better, I hope the outcome will be a positive result.
6/20/2008 9:25 AM
“Instead, Deaf Village is establishing that the one form that is accessible to all, regardless of hearing status, be used. And, what I really don’t buy is the whole argument that some deaf ASL users can’t read or write English well. That doesn’t do much to support the bi bi approach. If you tell us to go learn ASL, then I would say even more that those who can’t read or write English well get some help as that is an essential skill in society, whereas ASL is not.”
Post by Melissa
no wonder Deafvillage sucks.
*laugh*
6/20/2008 9:53 AM
Banjo, my one and only problem with this idea (and I originally had a similar idea as well)...but my only problem is that I can't moderate a vlog that isn't captioned. We expect the hearing people's vlogs to be captioned so that all moderators at Deaf Village are in fact able to moderate. It's not only a question of making them accessible to all members, it's a question of being able to moderate them as well...this is one reason we haven't agreed on an alternative solution yet...but we are listening.
Val-DV moderator
6/20/2008 10:14 AM
Val is right.
We cannot expect everything from Youtube, for example.
Many DVTV vloggers don't accept the captions/texts/transcripts in the DVTV's site.
So, what's the point having them to welcome them into the walks of life? How does it work?
White Ghost
6/20/2008 11:18 AM
No room for compromise on captioning of video blogs!
Captioning is and will always be an access issue in the deaf communities. The hearing folks don't have do it to their vlogs because its not and never been an access issue to them unless theyre delivering the message to the deaf communities.
The most important thing is how people, the hearing folks especially, see how we handle the captioning access issue. If were doing it, we'd send people a strong message we want it there. If we don't do it then they'll think we don't care about the caption access issues and in the long run it will make it very hard for us to get captioning for tv, movies, etc.
Compromise is what were already tired of, look at the FCC for example, it's the compromises that are delaying 100% captioning till 10-20 years from now.
So the upshot of this message is if we want it, we should do it to our vlogs, else, they wont do it for us when we ask them to do it.
6/20/2008 11:37 AM
Val, here are two solutions to your inability to moderate ASL vlogs...
1. get another moderator who is fluent in ASL to do so.
2. learn ASL
6/20/2008 11:41 AM
Banjo, what a wonderful example you are of leading by example! It sure makes a difference to see your face and facial expressions as you deliver your message, rather than reading English only which does not always give as much "flavor." This is the influence of nonverbal communication. I wish every deaf person would caption their videos IF they can. Many years ago when I was a new signer, I would never have been able to understand a word you said. I would have been frustrated, and it would have meant so much to me if you helped me out a little bit. Tell me, was it really too much work (or too hard) for you to do this? I agree with Seek Geo that captioning an ASL video should be strongly encouraged but not required. Maybe DeafVillage should get some more moderators who are fluent in ASL?
6/20/2008 11:42 AM
DeafRead is extremely Biased blog site! So, that's the big reason why there's newcomer websites coming out like Deaf Village, etc.
Trust me, most of you have forgotten what Freedom of Speech is all about.
6/20/2008 11:48 AM
actually, seeing these comments in this post; i gotta agree with Val... The oral deaf do need a domain of their own just like ASL fluent have their own as well.
Remember, we were threatened that the oral deaf was "polluting" our domain with unnecessary topics and discussion that are moot in a community that puts no life-needing value on sounds. I now see it simply that they had nowhere to go and made their own little domain.
Why change that? Their needs revolve around the hearing community; Deaf/ASL don't have that need. It's quite nice to have an editorial aggregator that actually requires subtitles or other form of access to information.
Remember; even hearies have to caption their shit too. We all saw the uproar when someone posted a vlog without subtitles in DVTV simply cause we couldn't access the information in our domain.
I have no problem with #5. anyone that does is no different than all the mikes, racheal, aarons, vals, and paoties who want the same things we do.
6/20/2008 11:52 AM
I would not have a problem with DV if it doesn't falsely claim that they are diversified blog aggregator while they are not since it required those Deaf people to add texts that they may not be capable of or not feel comfortable to do so. To me, DV is biased as well and prevents freedom of speech.
Compromise? Perhaps it will not happen since each of the blog aggregator has their own style and expectations.
6/20/2008 12:01 PM
barb, darlin...
diversity and access are two very different things, sweetheart.
we can have diversity without access. Doesn't that ring true for all those ASL vlogs that are not accessible to the ASL impaired people?
if its fair for ASL vlogs to be unsubtitled, then it should be fair for them to set their own standards.
After all, that is the effort which is needed in order to reach their audience. If you want that diversity in your audience, caption your vlog! Or use your AVT voice, whatever.
6/20/2008 12:13 PM
"Secondly, Barb, there are no double standards. If you really believe that then you need to go after CNN, for example, and myriads of other news shows for not providing Text to ASL translations of the many, many news every single hour of the day, 24/7. Or better yet, go after television shows or movies that do offer captioning but no ASL translator seen signing away in the lower corner of the screen. How come no hue and cry on demanding that for every captioned show it be translated into ASL.
There are no double standards, Barb. English is, at a minimum, a language accessible to most people. ASL is not."
From Mike McConnell
6/20/2008 12:14 PM
I have to agree with Dog Food. If Deaf Village were the only aggregate around, it might be different. But it isn't. No matter how we want things to be, DeafRead caters more toward the ASL Deaf, and Deaf Village leans more toward oral deaf. Nothing wrong with that. If your audience is mostly ASL Deaf, don't bother to subtitle, and stay on DeafRead. If you want to interact with oral deaf, then you will need to use subtitles, and comply with Deaf Village's rules.
Sometimes growth is painful. Sometimes the only way to take those steps is if someone else requires it of you. Since DeafRead will not welcome the more oral leaning deaf, they had to create their own aggregate. Many ASL Deaf on DeafRead wanted it that way. They felt that DeafRead should cater to them, and not get so "oral". They got their way. Why start complaining now that another aggregator has sprung up that requires access to oral deaf?
6/20/2008 1:05 PM
I can see the issue putting up blogs we can't follow, yes we can ignore them and do. The fact remains it prevents a level playing field from occuring, which maintains the divisions we face. I'd really like to know what the other half thinks..
Doing a vblog in ASL AND captions keeps both happy I would have thought. I don't think it is any harder to put up 2 vblogs than just the one, because we make a vid THEN caption it, so it only entails saving the first without, then making the second with.
I suppose then DV will reject the first vblog and accept the other ? The deaf.read ASL contribntor will then watch the sign version rejectingthe captioned, and we are still in the same no-man's land of access. The problem remains the ASL blogger may still refuse to do the same for you.
Oral or signing, we all use captions to follow, let no-one state any differently, the refusal is political, not communicational. ASL users are so frightened any other form of access, denigrates the value of sign language. It can't be lack of ability, because I am constantly amazed at the very high degree they show...
6/20/2008 1:21 PM
Some of you people have forgotten the complaints people made toward DeafRead. Some people left over it and then Deaf Village was set up so everybody from all walks of life could be included.
It wasn't supposed to be just for the oral bloggers and vloggers. Apparently, a few things has changed since then. It's easier for people who are speaking English or using Cued Speech to subtitle their vlogs since it's already in English.
Sorry, but that's what I'm seeing so far. Kind of easy to toss the word hypocrisy around, isn't it? I could, but I'm going to refrain from using it. The reason why I caption my vlogs is because I can translate it and still not stray away from the message. However, not everybody is comfortable enough with themselves to do that.
ASL is not English or the other way around, a lot of people don't seem to realize that it is a lot more work for some people to do a translation. I have experience with translating ASL into English, but I'm not going to lie and say that they are word-for-word and just as powerful because they aren't in most cases. I try to make the same impact if I can.
Signs are signs, words are words. That's the difference between ASL and English. Signs are not words or the other way around.
Especially with ASL Poetry. Now, how do you translate them? You can't without butchering them all up. A good example would be the edited and subtitled version of Mosdeux's Vital Signs that was featured on the DVD of the PBS documentary, "Through Deaf Eyes." That was quite a horrible translation of an ASL story.
I am suggesting that you make a compromise because if you don't, you will never hear the end of it. If not, then I suggest you take the "I Love You" sign out of the logo because it doesn't represent us at all. If Deaf Village is being strictly catered to an oral deaf audience, then why include a symbol of Deaf Culture in the logo?
I think it's a valid question to ask especially when you are sending mixed messages concerning diversity and inclusivity of people from all walks of life.
6/20/2008 1:55 PM
I think I would concede ASL poetry wouldn't translate, Welsh language poetry doesn't where I live. Oh we can read the words, but translated back into English they make little sense at all. Banjo we AREN'T talking ASL poetry, but debate and information online. I don't think you can suggest all ASL blogs are on par with poetry, which seems to be what some are suggesting, in that ASL cannot be trslated inot a form others can understand, because this isn't true. We have very few BSL bloggers at ALL in the UK, a Mr Savva is about the ONLY One I have ever seen that is true tothe culturalideal of sign, when he ocaccasionaly gives text back up, it appears as 'broken' English and grammar, but I get what he is saying, I don't offer criticism to his grammar or anything. I don't want ASL users to be completely Engliosh literate or grammatical, but some won't even give us a clue...
6/20/2008 2:13 PM
I would be happy just to see a short synopsis of the vlog. Something that will tell me the general idea of what the person is vlogging about.
6/20/2008 2:46 PM
This is kind of like my local movie theater only showing **some** captioned movies. Sure they tell me which ones are captioned and which ones aren't, but I don't have complete access like everyone else.
I appreciate that you're looking for ways to compromise and problems solve in a positive way though. But this "solution" just doesn't work for me. Smiles, Kim
6/20/2008 2:51 PM
On a completely different topic, Banjo.
I like the new Google Video with zooming feature inserted! Used to be that you had to go to the video's own page in order to zoom. Now when I ever want to go back to using a blog, I will be sure to use that in addition to YouTube if ever I have a subtitle file to go with my video clips.
6/20/2008 3:00 PM
I agree with MM, in that all of us would like to know the message a vlogger is expressing in ASL via captioning or a transcript. I 'm not one to go criticizing another's English grammar or literacy. There's nothing more frustrating to click on a vlog and not be able to understand all the signs, and alas, the message is lost on me.
I like what you have done with your vlog, Banjo, in that one can turn on or off the captioning at the bottom of the video. That gives a choice for those ASL users who are distracted by the captioning and for those who aren't ASL literate to understand the message. In addition, the emotional context of the ASL adds to the English. :) I'm well aware that some ASL signs don't translate easily to English, but better a few gaps than nothing at all.
Don't think DV has the funding to hire an ASL-to-English translator for the ASL vlogs that want to come to DV but don't have the resources or the knowledge of English. It would be strictly a volunteer job for the time being. And should DV find a good translator, then of course DV would have to put up a disclaimer that the English translation reflects only an approximation of the ASL message in the vlog, not exact.
There are many excellent ASL vloggers on the deaf blogosphere.
Instead of claiming language oppression, I hope that ASL vloggers will see captioning and/or transcripts in their vlogs as a way to open up their world to others who'd like to learn about the positives of sign language and the deaf community.
Ann_C
6/20/2008 3:00 PM
Banjo,
I am telling you why nobody bring up any suggestion or compromise within the Deaf Village's 5th guideline or whatever it calls.
I really do not give any hoots. Life is too short to make the big deal out of the Deaf Village.
I will think of "The Village" film every time I see the name of Deaf Village.
I already gave some metaphors why the Deaf Village is much similar to this film which the so-called perfect colony is really in the middle of wildlife preserve within the no-fly zone to make the colony residents into believing something.
Another metaphor with the comparsion of "Deaf Village" with the "Village" film. The unlikely heroine was a young blind lady herself, who don't need any kind of artifical assistance to succeed in life. She managed to oversmart the cunning type - someone in monster's suit and discovered truth on her own.
Rachel and Mike were much the same characters from "Proof" 1991 Australian film which they always had doubts about everything. In the end, both of them really f**ked up in their own world.
Rachel and Mike were much same in the racist agonistists whose determined the fate of culturally deaf individuals to the Aboriginals in the same film - "Rabbit-Proof Fence".
Australia have the long history of doing the forced assimilation of various racial groups.
This same country did deny several deaf African groups for entering the country for the World Federation of the Deaf pretty long time ago.
Australia is a f**ked-up "Down Under" country!
RLM
6/20/2008 3:06 PM
I agree, a summary or synopsis will do only if vlogger wants to do it keeping in mind how much reader/watcher s/he will be able to get her/his message across. A translation text, even if I enjoy to do it, it is time consuming, for me yes.
6/20/2008 3:53 PM
Kim,
"I appreciate that you're looking for ways to compromise and problems solve in a positive way though. But this "solution" just doesn't work for me. Smiles, Kim"
""You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"
Are you familiar with the expression above? That is how I would describe the situation here. Forcing a change upon the people is not going to make a difference.
The reason why this solution would work is because you will know if it's captioned or not so you can decide if you want to access it or not. This way, readers are given more options rather than just being give a list of so-called accessible blogs and vlogs.
You cannot make a horse drink. You have to wait for the horse to drink.
6/20/2008 4:30 PM
Banjo,
Should we focus on the Deaf Babies' need to have cognitive development skills at start with sign language?
Why do you have so much concern about deafvillage at this time instead of Deaf babies?
6/20/2008 4:39 PM
Banjo,
All I can say is we aren't seeing eye to eye. Your suggestion means that I won't have full access in DeafVillage. I already do NOT have full access in DeafRead. Further, most Youtube videos aren't captioned. Explain why you think your suggestion is a "compromise"? I am trying to learn ASL. Why don't those who can't write English try to learn English? Then they could benefit from all captioned movies, vlogs and blogs.
6/20/2008 4:57 PM
John,
I can see why Banjo focuses on DV at this time instead of on Deaf Babies. I think it has to do with the Domino Effect.
Right now, we have AVT-ONLY proponents at DV who are AGAINST the idea of ASL being included in the Deaf child's language acquisition needs.
The internet is a powerful tool.
There has to be balance. We have to reach the parents as well as professionals who are in the CI field.
Shelley
6/20/2008 5:08 PM
Kim,
I wish to address your issue.
When I started blogging/vlogging last year, I made the decision that I would carry both English and ASL, but right now I can only blog as I'm having technical difficulties with moviemaker... (I can edit, but I cannot seem to make my vlog go out to youtube or anywhere else without it appearing in black only. This has been an issue for a long time now.)
I don't need DV to REQUIRE me to make my blog/vlogs accessible. What's more: requiring people with more trouble with English and the translation process requires knowledge of linguistics of ASL in order to translate properly into English, which one also has to know the grammatical conventions and nuances as well.
Please read Mishka Zena's blog for the indepth discussions of this issue.
Like SeekGeo and so many other people said: Change the word from require to encourage. Also, if DV moderators REQUIRE ASL vloggers to do the access thing, then they should require bloggers to reciprocate in the name of diversity and accessibility. But that is not realistic as not everyone knows ASL well enough to translate, and not everyone knows English well enough to translate.
As long as that guideline is there, I cannot support DV as it contradicts the claim of diversity.
However, I do sympathize with people like you and Dena, Kim. (I hope I spelled Dena's name correctly.) I am just technologically unable to do so right now, unless someone advises me how to solve this.
Shelley
6/20/2008 5:10 PM
I wonder if DBC supporters don't realize that Deaf Village is another online source for hearing parents of deaf babies. The majority of deaf children are born to hearing parents. Hearing parents speak and read English.
Therefore, if DBC and others who support ASL as another tool of communication for deaf babies ignore DV by not placing captioned or transcribed messages geared towards hearing parents, then they lose out a huge audience. DV will then become heavily lop-sided with CI and oral methods blogs, and that will be all hearing parents will see for options on DV while surfing online for information on deafness. I always thot that DBC wanted to see the ASL option on the table along with the others. :/
Ann_C
6/20/2008 5:15 PM
"Explain why you think your suggestion is a "compromise"?"
Because it is a compromise, it can't get any simpler than this. A compromise doesn't mean it's a real solution, but more of an agreement between two sides.
I already have explained it, I don't need to explain it again.
Apparently the expression I mentioned fell on deaf ears. In the end, people will discover that they cannot force changes upon the people without consequences.
It's easier said than done.
6/20/2008 5:40 PM
Whoa....
What about the 1900's with word by word in captioning without the sounds?
Interesting.....
Banjo!
I'll have a newspaper whipping onto your forehead!
You mentioned "If not, then I suggest you take the "ILY" sign out of the logo because it doesn't represent us at all."
DV welcomed and opened their arms to Seek Geo! He's using his ASL and have cc'ed everytime he made his vlogs!
White Ghost
6/20/2008 5:46 PM
White Ghost,
Not everything is as rosy as they may appear to be.
So which is which?
One thing you should know about Geo is that he chose to caption his vlogs, he wasn't forced into doing it. He has said on several occasions that it should not be mandated. Instead, it should be encouraged.
The more encouragement you spread, the more likely they will consider captioning their vlogs.
Be proactive and you might be surprised to see the results.
6/20/2008 6:06 PM
OFF TOPIC HERE....
Australia is a f**ked-up "Down Under" country! <------ im deeply offended at comment #20 by RLM calling us a ferked up country and racist.
You should look at your country bringing black slaves and you calling us racist!!
So you are a racist too RLM!!!
6/20/2008 6:10 PM
To RLM,
WHOAH.....Back up on that "Australia is a f**ked up "Down Under" county!" Geez, do you have to be a damn racist?!? As part Aussie, I feel deeply offended by that remark.
As you know everywhere in the world is the most f**ked up as well. But why are you using Australia as a target? I think you should apologize to all Australians (hell even part-Australians) especially TassieLady who hails from Australia.
Another proud part-Aussie, Misha
6/20/2008 6:35 PM
Ann_C,
You and I don't always agree on everything, but I agree with your comment at 5:10, which is basically what I said in response to John, but with one difference... ASL isn't a tool. It's a bonafide language, different from SEE, PSL, TC, which are merely modes (tools)of communication based on ENGLISH, to teach English to children.
However, the basic gist of our responses to John is the same.
Shelley
6/20/2008 7:32 PM
Exactly, if DBC wanted to reach out to hearing parents, they'd make sure that theier blogs are captioned, subtitled or provided with a transcript.
Ann_C has a very good point.
Candy~
6/20/2008 7:59 PM
Forgot to add one more thing,
Banjo, I don't quite agree with your suggestion to remove the "I Love You" sign. It represents people like me who blog over at DV.
6/20/2008 8:19 PM
Candy, please do not take my words out of context.
"I am suggesting that you make a compromise because if you don't, you will never hear the end of it. If not, then I suggest you take the "I Love You" sign out of the logo because it doesn't represent us at all. If Deaf Village is being strictly catered to an oral deaf audience, then why include a symbol of Deaf Culture in the logo?"
This is what I said. It's based on the speculation and claims being made by some people here and around the internet. I don't think it's something to be taken lightly when people are speculating.
I do agree with some people here that they should be encouraging people instead of requiring it.
Like I said earlier, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
6/20/2008 11:38 PM
Kim, "Why don't those who can't write English try to learn English?"
You really have to ask this question?? Really?????
Ann, DV already is lopsided with CI and oral methods blogs. No use trying to change it. All the more reason for Rachel to start including some ASL success stories. But do you think she'll do that anytime soon? Nah.
6/21/2008 3:39 AM
Banjo, No you can't force a horse to drink if it doesn't want to, equally then you cannot insist others provide ASL for you. So you are going to quit asking for that access ? As we are into cliche's, sauce for the goose etc....You can't have your cake and eat it. It is the question of practicality, not politics. If we don't understand sign, we need captions to follow, this isn't a problem for you as you can follow both, we are asking you provide for those not as lucky or adept as you are. Access like charity should begin at home ! (That's enough cliche's and adages for one day !).
6/21/2008 3:40 AM
Shelley-- you said, "I don't need DV to REQUIRE me to make my blog/vlogs accessible. What's more: requiring people with more trouble with English and the translation process requires knowledge of linguistics of ASL in order to translate properly into English, which one also has to know the grammatical conventions and nuances as well."
You don't NEED DV at all. (smile) It's all up to you.
I already know about the difficulties of translating ASL to English and vice-versa. Look what Anonymous said to Val in comment #5. Why is it OK to suggest to her to "learn ASL" so she can moderate uncaptioned vlogs, but NOT OK to suggest to those who don't know English to "learn English."
How easy do y'all think it is to learn ASL? Realizing it's a real language and not just a "mode of communication" you must know then it takes about seven years to master, as well as tons of exposure to native speakers who don't mind talking to someone who is very good at it.
Kim
6/21/2008 3:47 AM
MM-- I was just think of the same thing. . ."What's good for the goose. . ."
Anonymous-- Yes look at comment #5 to Val. It's no easier to learn ASL than it is to learn English. At least most Deaf have way more exposure to English than most deaf have to ASL. Further, because we live in an English speaking society, those Deaf who learn to read and write English will find it invaluable-- whereas those of us learning ASL only have the rare opportunity to practice. (me included)
6/21/2008 4:03 AM
Shelly-- In my last statement, I meant people learning ASL need tons of practice with native speakers who don't mind talking to those who aren't very good at ASL. That's really hard to come by.
6/21/2008 4:13 AM
"Banjo, No you can't force a horse to drink if it doesn't want to, equally then you cannot insist others provide ASL for you. So you are going to quit asking for that access ? As we are into cliche's, sauce for the goose etc....You can't have your cake and eat it. It is the question of practicality, not politics. If we don't understand sign, we need captions to follow, this isn't a problem for you as you can follow both, we are asking you provide for those not as lucky or adept as you are. Access like charity should begin at home ! (That's enough cliche's and adages for one day !)."
MM im surprise you dont want to do ASL so what is your problem... do you really know what compromise means.. come on gimme a break. I for e.g only learn AUSLAN and i think its great to have caption so i can understand other different sign language and yes im oral as well because i was brought up in hearng world and yes i prefer both oral and sign language and prefer caption to give me a better understanding. I know 2 of my friends have CI and yes they do AUSLAN because they know they are deaf. Really you are being narrowminded and not seeing the BIGGER picture.
How about you start seeing the BIGGER picture rather than being a moron of yourself !!!!
PS i rather have caption and if you dont like it go and piss in the fucking tree when it doesnt talk back at you !!!
CIAO
6/21/2008 4:19 AM
"Banjo, No you can't force a horse to drink if it doesn't want to, equally then you cannot insist others provide ASL for you. So you are going to quit asking for that access?"
MM, putting a spin on everything I say isn't going to help because they are simply not true. Don't put words into my mouth. It would be a nice change if you would start paying attention to what I say and see what I am really saying.
I was not demanding for the others to provide ASL for me. I don't need it. Did you even watch the vlog? If so, you should know that I was not demanding ASL vlogs.
What is truly wrong with wanting a compromise to take place? Instead, people here just nitpick and resort to fallible arguments without offering any real solutions or compromises.
How is this going to affect everybody? The icons would be there for everybody to see. By having that, everybody is able to decide for themselves rather than having people making decisions for the readers.
By having this discussion, you'll think it was about gay marriage! It's a compromise that may or will work. But the trick is to getting people to give it a shot.
I would rather be proactive and more inclusive of everybody rather than scaring them away. If you want people to caption their vlogs, encourage them. Don't rule them with an iron fist because it's not going to work.
6/21/2008 4:43 AM
Banjo-- I don't see it as a compromise or "inclusion" because your "compromise" EXCLUDES people like me, who are already excluded from most DeafRead vlogs, DVTV, Youtube and other internet videos.
We get excluded everywhere already. Why can't y'all be happy with DeafRead?
6/21/2008 12:04 PM
Kim
It's not ideal to try to learn sign language by watching vlogs as many times the translation of ASL is not by word by word into English.
I would suggest that you take sign language classes. Interaction with proficient ASL users in person is really the best way to learn ASL. That's how I learned sign language.
It's not the job of the vloggers and bloggers to start teaching the viewers the fine arts of ASL and written English. Their jobs are to present information in whatever they are interested in discussing with others. This is supposed to be enjoyable, not hard work.
It gets very complicated because ASL vloggers are using their natural language and some may be weak in English. In that case, watching the weak written English translation of these ASL vloggers would be very confusing because it may be hard to understand their English. Some are heavily written in ASL style. I've worked with enough ASL users professionally to see a wide spectrum of proficiency in English
6/21/2008 2:17 PM
Um, Tassielady, MM is a Brit, actually a Welshman, and if he knows any sign language, that would be BSL, not ASL. BSL is different than ASL. I believe MM is making a case for inclusion, that is, captioning or a transcript with a vlog, so that he can understand an ASL vlogger's message.
Ann_C
6/21/2008 2:27 PM
MishkaZ--I've taken seven ASL courses-- four from community colleges and three from a Deaf center in Seattle. The past six classes were taught by Deaf people.
I'm not trying to learn ASL by watching vlogs. That would be ridiculous.
6/21/2008 3:30 PM
Kim, please accept my apology. I was under the impression you were learning ASL. I know another blogger, Val, is.
So I am at a loss what the problem is, then.
6/21/2008 4:41 PM
You do know that the blogs already exclude some ASL users. This guideline will be more exclusive, shutting out a certain group further. This defeats the original purpose of the aggregator, to be more inclusive. Let's not pretend otherwise.
6/21/2008 4:44 PM
MZ,
Learning anything takes some time, and that includes ASL. One has to take into account the availability of ASL resources such as classes, online video lessons, what one can or cannot afford, and proximity to places where the Deaf congregate.
Other factors: Some of us hold full-time jobs or have to look after family members so time resources are limited as well. Some of us are not exposed to other deaf individuals on a daily basis in order to keep up the practice. For me, ASL vlogs keep my practice up even though I have little access to ASL or other deaf individuals who use it. I'm doing what I can to learn it, with the limitations on my time and money. I know that vlogs are not the best way to learn ASL, but it's better than not at all.
The captioning is a tremendous help in understanding the gist of the vlogger's message, especially for one who is not yet proficient in ASL. I'm well aware that the captioning is not an exact translation of the ASL. Although I'm oral deaf, I like to know what is going on in the d/Deaf community, because we share many problems and concerns.
Ann_C
6/21/2008 4:48 PM
Hi MZ (smile)-- The problem is ASL isn't as easy to learn as most Deaf people think. I do well in ASL, REALLY. But I'm slow, and need explanations. I am still learning. My understanding isn't 100% in real life. I have to ask a lot of questions-- "Did you mean. . .?" I'm like a child.
If you accept the fact that ASL is a real language--which I do--then you must also accept the fact that it takes about seven years and intensive immersion/practice with native speakers to become fluent. Seven courses does NOT equal seven years by the say. I have the equivalent of two years. Each course was 10-12 weeks long.
I have a basic vocabulary of about 2000 signs? My ASL dictionary contains 5000 signs, not including regional differences and slang -- so I have a ways to go.
Further, the grammar and sentence structure is challenging to people who speak English as a first language. English, as you know, tends to be overly wordy and descriptive. If a person pairs down just to ASL gloss in written form, it takes a little while to get used to that for a native English speaker because it makes no sense at first.
Then add in classifiers, fingerspelling at light speed and the fact you can't look up an unknown sign. dictionary-- It's exceedingly difficult. ASL dictionaries aren't two-way like other foreign languages where you can look up an unknown word. Further there's no written form. So it's a very HANDS-ON language that has to be experienced first hand to become fluent.
AND to make matters worse-- many ASL Deaf don't want to have anything to with ASL learners, so we find it really hard to get that practice we so desperately need.
Incidently-- I much prefer transcribing over captioning. Or the ability to watch a vlog with or without captions, so I can watch the video as signed only, then guess to see how much I got.
Kim :-)
6/21/2008 5:29 PM
Ann C and Kim,
Believe me, I do know it's not easy to learn a new language, especially ASL as it uses body parts one isn't accustomed for communication. When I went to Gallaudet, I only knew two words. It took me years to get where I am. So I do understand your frustrations. Really, interacting with ASL users in person is the best way to master ASL. Unfortunately, there is no short cut. Perhaps you can hire an ASL tutor to work with you or organize a club for you and other ASL students to practice.
The crux of the problem is that some ASL users have their own issues, especially with the literacy skills.
For example Seek Geo and Banjo are not the typical ASL users as they are very fluent in English. Some of the ASL users' writing are difficult to decipher... sometimes I need to think in ASL before I can make sense of what they are trying to express. As hard as they may try, they will never become competent in written English because they didn't have a solid language base during their early childhood.
Let's use an example. Suppose you are very weak in ASL. How would you feel if you are being asked to translate your blogs into ASL? Do you think you can do a good job? That's the scenario facing some ASL users.
I admit translating ASL to English is difficult, and I am proficient in both languages. Seriously some ASL users with weak English skills are unable to translate well.
6/21/2008 7:43 PM
HI MZ-- Practicing with other learners isn't the way to become fluent. I get frustrated with Hearing students who don't take it seriously.
I've discussed the possiblity of hiring an ASL tutor and attending Deaf Camps. I need lots of practice.
I realize many Deaf have issues with literacy. Please realize that I'm over 50. It's not easy to learn new languages at my age. Watching non-transcribed or non-captioned vlogs is just as hard for me as it is for some to caption or transcribe their vlogs.
No matter how you cut it, SOMEONE will be excluded. Either them or me. There's no getting around it. My point is THEY already have DeafRead and DVTV. Up until DeafVillage was created, I had no fully accessible aggregator.
6/21/2008 7:59 PM
Kim, I understand. Perhaps you could suggest to DV the removal of the word inclusive. It would be more accurate as DV isn't inclusive.
6/21/2008 8:29 PM
I agree with Mishka.
In this situation, I don't think it's possible for DV to live up to its promise of inclusivity for precisely the reason Kim gave. Therefore Mishka's solution makes sense.
Shelley
6/22/2008 12:26 AM
You do realize there are illiterate hearing people too?
#5 applies to all so that the greatest number of deaf/Deaf can benefit. It means hearing vloggers must ALSO caption everything.
The problem is when you make a rule it has to be enforced uniformly. I noticed DeafRead has more stringent requirements for "hearing" bloggers. I have also noticed there are literate Deaf vloggers who don't caption or transcribe simply because they don't feel like it. Historically that meant people on the fringes of the deaf community-- the HH, the late-deafened, CI deaf and parents of CI deaf were left out in DeafRead. DV was created for that very reason! (smile)
If it were ONLY the illiterate who didn't caption or transcribe, I think we'd all be more understanding. It's just that I am quite aware of those with Masters degrees and what not who don't like to caption or transcribe because they don't like people like me in their community.
If DV were to drop the captioning requirement, it would mean hearing people-- such as parents of children with CI's and other CIer's who can hear well enough to understand spoken vlogs without captions could submit uncaptioned vlogs.
Likewise Deaf people who were capable of captioning, but didn't feel like it could also forego the captioning.
DV has made an effort to include as many deaf/Deaf/HH people as possible with guideline #5. It's only a very small minority of Deaf and hearing who can't caption or transcribe.
It's not that I don't care about illiterate people-- whether Deaf or hearing, but I see this guideline as a step toward the greater good, since the vast majority of deaf/
Deaf/HH people ARE literate and do not use ASL.
I realize you have your principles and you can decide not to be a part of DV if you like. However, I don't see that choice as a good way of promoting unity within the deaf community.
I too have principles. I believe access for more people is better than access for only a few people, which is what happens in DeafRead.
I understand your POV, but I disagree with you.
Kim :-)
6/22/2008 12:57 AM
Deaf/HH people ARE literate and do not use ASL <------ laughing you gotta be kidding me!!!!
you will find alot do use ASL i think you need to get out more !!
6/22/2008 1:31 AM
Hi Tassielady-- The majority of deaf and HH do not use ASL. 70% of all deaf are late-deafened who became deaf AFTER learning to speak English. The other thirty percent use a combination of English, SEE, PSE, Cueing, and ASL. Because SEE, PSE and Cueing all use English syntax, the majority can read and write English.
That's not even taking into account all the young deaf adults who have grown up with Cochlear Implants, who mostly use English instead of ASL.
Therefore MOST deaf/Deaf/HH people in America are literate, understand English and do not use ASL. I stand by what I said.
6/22/2008 3:28 AM
Hi Kim,
I just wanted to let you know that I really appreciate your comment #56. You've explained the purposes of requiring captions/subtitles or transcripts very well.
Thanks!
Rachel
6/22/2008 10:59 AM
Kim,
This aggregator is also for the deaf people, unlike other aggregators. By the way it is set up, not all deaf people can participate on an equal footing. The fact that the blogs are not being mandated to provide ASL translation for these people while the vlogs are required to be captioned shows the lack of diversity by refusing to make accommodations to everybody, only to people fluent in English. If they are made on a voluntary basis, I can understand that, but arbitrary mandates actively exclude Deaf people with weak literary skills. It strongly favors deaf oral people and hearing people. If that's what you want, then let's not perpetuate the myth of being fully accessible and embracing the diversity of all deaf people. It's the hypocrisy I am pointing out. The policy is also very divisive to the D/deaf community
We will have to agree to disagree here on principle, Kim :)
6/22/2008 2:51 PM
MZ,
Some deaf have not been able to participate in DeafRead on an equal footing because many ASL vlogs were not captioned or transcribed, hence some of DR was not accessible to some deaf. It was hypocritical for DR to describe itself as diverse to begin with, if accessibility is open to some but not to others.
I don't see DV's policy as divisive to the deaf community. It's drawing the very people who were not able to participate in DR on an equal footing along with ASL vloggers who didn't caption or transcribe their vlogs. You and other v/bloggers who disagree with DV's policy have DeafRead and DVTV-- there's plenty of room for different deaf people to participate in the deaf blogosphere. Competition can be a healthy thing. Keeps things from getting stale or too one-sided.
Ann_C
6/22/2008 3:41 PM
Ann and MZ--
I think we're having a disconnect. I feel excluded in DeafRead.
I feel badly for those excluded from DeafVillage, but I don't see a good answer.
I'm not on the DV committee, so it isn't up to me to tell them how to promote their site. I'm simply a blogger here. That said, I will for sure encourage my late-deafened friends with blogs to join DV for the very reason that they require captioning on all vlogs.
Smiles MZ-- No hard feelings.
6/22/2008 5:26 PM
Arrgghh. One types a long answer, only to find out it's not recorded.
Ann C, blogs aren't accessible to Deaf ASL users, either at DR. DR isn't hypocritical as it carries both blogs and ASL vlogs for everybody to choose. People fluent in English can still read the blogs and Deaf ASL users can watch the vlogs. So they both have equal footing.
Whereby the mandatory rule of this aggregator on the captioning of the vlogs excludes all ASL Deaf people weak in English skills. Blogs aren't accessible to them anyway. Effectively with that particular word, the door is slammed shut to a group of Deaf people. According to the majority of Deaf people, the exclusion divides the D/deaf Community instead of being inclusive and promoting unity and diversity. Unlike you who acknowledge this issue frankly, Kim, others deny the lack of inclusivity.
DVTV never claims to be inclusive.
Kim, no hard feelings. :)
6/22/2008 10:05 PM This post has been removed by the author.
6/22/2008 10:20 PM
Banjo and everyone,
"Why can't you accept others who preferences close captions or no close captions?"
Seems you're not satisfy with DeafRead or DeafVideo.tv ?
Why can't everyone respect others who preferences no close captions on their video vlog?
Not necessary whine about this.
Move on and respect them.
Find Elsewhere!!
If someone who learning Sign Languages can find themselves and to learn their ASL only or come with close captions.
Whatever this is free country and free speech.
Whoever complain about DeafRead and Deafvideo.tv about no close caption because they are choose to and comfortable feel their home reason no close captions. What more, They aren't interested blogosphere. You have to accept and respect their wishes. You cannot force them and expecting "LEARN write the English grammar". Sound like you're being an ass-ho/e. Please advise you don't dare footing their preferences. Learn word "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" everyone diversity!
Actually I'm agree more with #63
Are you complain about other youtube or other video log have no close caption provided for Deaf Community example: Hearing people who not willing provide them close captions. Should we force Hearing people must typing close caption our rights accessible? I do not think so! Respect their choice!
Will do same thing.
compromise? Oh please give damn a break!
Wha..a...(ahem) Wasting this sh/t time debating for stupid tiny topic!
6/24/2008 1:08 PM
As much I have said nothing so far over this issue til now. I have to agree with some of the stuff that GalaxyAngel has said. From what I seen it is been a making mountain out of mole hill. I have to grant Banjo just trying to offer a SUGGESTION. It is JUST a suggestion NOT pushing/shoving it. But it erupted like a volcano by some of you. I’m all for captioning vlogs or videos. But I’m also all 100% for OPTION to choose by the respect of other person feeling want to do it or not. It is totally up to them. It’s bad enough for many that are shy and would be willing make blog or vlogs to reconnect to the deaf community in internet world. I see both sides of the story but at the same time we got to be realistic about this situation. It is a bitter pill to swallow that we have been dealt with being “left out” by few or many. All of us have gone through it one time or another. But I can tell it has hit a major nerve for some of you. But come on, you can’t blame it on each of us. Blame it onto the one that left you out. Plus this topic is really over a mandatory of caption or transcript of the videos. Not the “left out” feeling situations by some of you. This is where I say it is making a mountain out of a molehill. Don’t sweat over the small stuff.
6/28/2008 11:44 AM
HI Banjo, not a bad sugestion and I see where both you and deaf village are coming from, but what about deaf people who dont have ASL? Limer me? I have Irish Sign Language, ISL which is similar but not the same as ASL, and for me the transcript subs and CC it brilliant :)